What Amped Up The Roman Soldiers' Pysche Before A Battle?

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

I remembered something from the recent Spartacus movie and remembered the scene where the primam aciem( first line of battle or maniple) were marching down the steep ground and they were chanting something like how the Marines put on heavy or loud music to amp them up. So can anyone help me out what motivated or got Roman soldiers into the mood during battle.

[Lost_Warrior]

Well during the Empire, they often prayed to the deified Emperor (actually...Imperator) and I'm sure they always prayed to their Gods (likely to one of the titles of Jupiter). As for chants, I have no clue.

[Favonius Cornelius]

I know the cornicerns were used for signal purposes during battle, but certainly they could have been blown into some sort of prebattle clarion call. Think of when Caesar marched into Rome in the HBO series 'Rome.'

[Legio XX Valeria Victrix]

Hello. The Republican era legionaries used psyche up methods before a battle more often than legionaries of the Principate. One form was to hit the hasta against the scutum. After increasing contact with Germanic tribes, Roman soldiers relied more and more on the barratus which was a type of mumbling roar that increased in crescendo to a very high pitch. It is not clear whether the Romans actually did this because they found this intimidated their German enemies or because the later Principate army had large numbers of soldiers recruited in Germany who were simply carrying on an ancient tribal custom.

[Jimbow]

If you can get your hands on a copy of Ross Cowan's article in the April 2005 issue of Military Illustrated entitled "Roman Headhunters and Drinkers of Blood", it's well worth a read. It illustrates well, using legitimate source material, how the Roman soldier probably didn't need to psyche up - he was pretty much a psycho anyway

Instead of the usual well defined and ordered ranks we have in our mind's eye, imagine a rabble of bloodthirsty (sometimes quite literally) opportunistic thugs who often couldn't wait to get into the fight: Tribunes threatened with murder for holding back, if not actually gutted and the offender praised for it (by Caesar); Cornicens threatened for not giving the order to advance; two rival centurions jumping into the enemy to see who could kill the most. It's an eyebrow-raising read and a nice take on the mindset of the men who made up one of the toughest forces the world has ever seen.

 

Cheers,

Jim.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Thanks alot Jim, that got me thinking a little better.

[ungoliant]

If you can get your hands on a copy of Ross Cowan's article in the April 2005 issue of Military Illustrated entitled "Roman Headhunters and Drinkers of Blood", it's well worth a read.

 

jimbow, sir, i wonder if you could find it in you to somehow help us get a hold of that article. it seems military illustrated is published in the UK, and too expensive for me here in the states. as they don't have a website i can find, i am afraid i cannot get a hold of the article you mention.

[Pertinax]

Can I disagree on the psycho front? One lesson learned from Kendo training is that the violent and indisciplined struggle to learn any meaningful fighting techniques as they cannot control themselves, and they dont last too long if faced with a person who has command of technique. The Legions relied on men acting in accord and with pre-determined strategy, witness Caeser commenting on his men not wasting time by going to their own standards but moving behind the nearest standard when suddenly surprised.( Ill try and find the full reference )later. I also note one or two examples of extreme fire discipline , the opposing veteran Legions at Forum Gallorum raised no war cry knowing it would not terrify their veteran opponents(Appian: Civil War);at Pharsalus Pompey told his men to hold position and await attack to reduce the impetus of Caeser's attack,Ceaser's men spontaneously checked their charge so as not to waste energy in the first assault.

I can understand men cracking with pent up fury battle stress and cutting down fleeing enemies, time and again this is the fatal episode in many ancient (and modern) battles and seems to be an imprinted reflex to destroy when the enemy turns his back in combat. I can also see that there is nothing deadlier than disciplined and hardened troops let off the leash, the Icenii casualties were unbelievable,including oxen cut down in their traces never mind the camp followers whod turned up to watch the show.

I also have a reference to the British Legions "singing their victory hymm".

Rambled on again

 

and the prospect of booty-before facing the Icenii the Romans were exhorted not to think of booty because if they triumphed "all would be theirs"

[Primus Pilus]

While that does make sense in theory, we cannot argue the use of adrenaline inspiring speeches and motivating tactics to steel a soldier's resolve before a battle. Adrenaline boosting does not always equate to wild out of control aggression.

[Pertinax]

Once again I can see both sides of the argument,I think id suggest that the Legions responded most of all to fair and charismatic leadership (as do most troops) but being so technologically superior to many enemies and having a killing capacity of such fearsome proprtions that if motivated they would (as they often did) destroy much larger enemy forces.

[Ursus]

Well, it's generally not well known, but on the sidelines of the battlefield they had comely young women in scanty red outfits cheering and dancing. Occasionally they would spell R-O-M-A with their arms and bodies.

[Pertinax]

Are you being quite truthful?

[Jimbow]

jimbow, sir, i wonder if you could find it in you to somehow help us get a hold of that article.

Ungoliant, sorry I heven't got back to you sooner - had computer problems Anyway, I got my copy on Ebay. While the particular issue wasn't listed amongst a huge number of issues I contacted the seller directly with the details and he had it. He even very kindly threw in a free issue with an article on Celtic swords! Try Ebay on a regular basis. I'd offer to scan it but I really don't want to fall foul of Mr Cowan and MI, if you see what I mean.

Can I disagree on the psycho front? One lesson learned from Kendo training is

Feel free to disagree, but there is definite evidence of your average legionary, and centurion, becoming a tad "unhinged" when psyched up. However, I know the references to them also being very self-disciplined, so it may have something to do with how experienced the unit was? But, I think it may be dangerous to equate kendo to group tactics using gladii and pila.

and the prospect of booty-before facing the Icenii the Romans were exhorted not to think of booty because if they triumphed "all would be theirs"

I personally feel this is one of the overriding factors that determined a legionary's loyalty, and stripping the dead of their valuables was the norm it seems. Julius Mansuetus (?) seems to have been so determined to chase an opposing Roman at the 2nd Battle of Cremona he did not even recognise his own father and cut him down, only realising his mistake when the dying man recognised him while being stripped of booty by his own son! Remember that the fighting was still going on at the time, and only stopped when the men nearby realised what had happened. And then it quickly started again. As for the fate of the city of Cremona itself, that beggars belief as to the sheer brutality the winning Flavian forces issued on a Roman city.

 

Cheers,

Jim.

[Pertinax]

I certainly dont disagree about "becoming unhinged " in combat- I was trying to make a distinction between the sociopathic /psychotic (who can be military elites in very tightly controlled circumstances-Ulfshander for example) and the generallity of Legionnaires who would need to be less "antisocial" to function as a disciplined unit.

The kendo observation was just a way into the idea-ive been in some pretty wild sparring bouts and seen red myself,but stuck to technique as best as possible. On the other hand ive not spent 10 years slogging across Europe with a short sword in bad weather,perhaps id be in a seriously bad frame of mind .

The Cremona incident I knew of and am inclined to say that internicine conflict is the bloodiest and deadliest of all.

[Lost_Warrior]

Well, it's generally not well known, but on the sidelines of the battlefield they had comely young women in scanty red outfits cheering and dancing. Occasionally they would spell R-O-M-A with their arms and bodies.

 

LOL!!!