Antony And Octavian

[emperess]

if octavian hadn't been in caesars will, do you think he would have risen to such a rank?

[Sextus Roscius]

Octavian would not have risen to be the same empeorer that he was if it had not been for caesars will. Infact, he wouldn't be much without caesar considering he was adopted heir rather than blood line. Perhaps at the end of the civil war then he would have still turned out on top but it is more likely that Antony would have become Empoerer. There is no telling what would've happened then. Perhaps for the better if Antony left Octavian as his heir and Octavian in turn left control of the Empire to germanicus rather than the obviously faulted Tiberius.

 

But my answer remains the same. Octavian would not have been considered one fo the best Empoeres in history if he hadn't succeded Caesar to power. If Caesar hadn't left Octavian in his will in the first place then perhaps he would not have seemed as important and been more disregaurded. Ceasar's legions where very loyal to Caesar but once Caesar died they split apart to the different combatants. Perhaps some of Caesar's soldiers wouldn't have gone to Octavian had Caesar not designated him. There must have been some loyalty left to the legions.

[emperess]

without octavian would the republic have ended at all

[Sextus Roscius]

the republic was over when Caesar crossed the rubicon. There was not going to be more senators once that happened. Octavian played no role in whether or not there was going to be a series of Empoeres

[Germanicus]

the republic was over when Caesar crossed the rubicon. There was not going to be more senators once that happened. Octavian played no role in whether or not there was going to be a series of Empoeres

 

I think the republic was over long before that, people just didn't realise it. (Sulla, Pompey etc had all put their nails in the coffin).

 

With regard to Octavian, It's something I often wonder about - he was a great Politician and manipulator, who's to say what he would have done without being Caesars heir. I agree, it would have been extreemly difficult for him to take and hold any sort of supreme power, guess we'll never know.

 

On another note, I think the fact that Octavians rule went for 40 years and garunteed that when he died, next to no one was alive to remember living in a republic went a long way to ensuring that the concept never rose again in Roman politics. I like to think that Sulla, Pompey, the Oligarchs, and Caesar all put nails in the republics coffin, and then Octavian/Augustus, buried it.

[emperess]

ofcourse the republic had been falling apart for sometime, but octavian and antony were very important figures to me, especially the conflict between them and also octavian becoming the first emperor

[Ursus]

if octavian hadn't been in caesars will, do you think he would have risen to such a rank?

 

 

Probably not to imperator, no. But he was shrewd and could have done well for himself.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Wow, never thought of that. Well if Octavianus was not in the will, I would assume he would just appeal to Caesar's legions whom are very loyal instead of the plebeians, don't really need their support.

[Virgil61]

the republic was over when Caesar crossed the rubicon. There was not going to be more senators once that happened. Octavian played no role in whether or not there was going to be a series of Empoeres

 

You may have not meant it, but there were certainly senators after the Rubicon and until the 6th century I believe.

 

I think Octavian played a very key role establishment of the rule of emperors. He centralized power on himself, decreased the power of the Senate to a rubber-stamp council, had the legions establish loyalty to him personally, etc. He may not have meant to establish an empire, and he may have even loathed the thought, but he set the ground work for it.

 

By the way, I am an alumni of the university in that "small town named after a little church on a hill" in your "from" blurb.

[Sextus Roscius]

You're a UNC alumni. Nice to meet you, but back to the subject.

 

Virgil, when I said that the republic was over once Caesar crossed the rubicon, I meant that the republic was no longer the effective controling force. After that caesar and the empoers had to real power, the senate was no longer the deciding force. The empoers only had to maintain the senate to keep a sense of "freedom" in the public. Also the senate suggested things but the Empoer didn't have to do them. That is what I meant, rather than that there wasn't any Senate at all.

[Primus Pilus]

if octavian hadn't been in caesars will, do you think he would have risen to such a rank?

 

As important as Octavian proved to be, without Caesar's will he would have been a rather insignificant blip on the historical radar. The legions followed him and the people immediately loved him because he was the 'son of a god'. Though he may have had some political acumen and risen to to some degree in the senate roles of his own merit, without that will, the afore-mentioned support simply would not have existed.

[phil25]

Caesar's name was what gave Octavian his start - without the name Gaius Julius Caesar, Octavian (essentially a callow youth) would have had no status, no locus and no hold over his uncle's veterans. Antonius knew that.

 

If Octavian had had to work froma standing start, Antonius would have buried him - unquestioned leader of the Caesarian party, Marcus would have smoothed over differences with the "Liberators" and a form of the republic would have been restored. Antonius, was primus inter pares, would no doubt have based himself in the east and controlled Roman politics discretely from afar.

 

He might even have wed Cleopatra - whom he already knew from her time in Rome as Caesar's mistress- and might have founded a divine dynasty which would have ruled the east as Rome's regents. Eventually, the capital might have moved to Alexandria - or how about a new city - Antonopolis on the Bosphorus?

 

That model might have worked. If Antonius had sought to continue with a controlled Republic, I think Rome would have faced decades more of civil war, until a Vespasian or Trajan emerged to make it an undisguised monarchy.

 

But Octavian - where would his power base have been without the power of the name to rouse the troops, to seek to have Caesar's chair placed in the theatre and at the Circus, to demand the destruction of his assassins? In my view, nowhere.

 

Cicero recognised it - "everyone calls him Caesar, but Phillipus doesn't and neither do I". Clearly Octavian was using the name, the persona, as heir.

 

Chance is Octavian would have had a knife between his ribs one dark night... and the whole of the rest of history would have been changed.

 

Just my view, of course,

 

 

Phil

[P.Clodius]

It is highly unlikely he would have gone on to become Augustus but I do agree with others who say he would still have carved a niche for himself. Afterall, he is arguably the worlds greatest politician ever to have existed.

[phil25]

It is highly unlikely he would have gone on to become Augustus but I do agree with others who say he would still have carved a niche for himself. Afterall, he is arguably the worlds greatest politician ever to have existed.

 

But even "the world's greatest politician" needs a starting point - I'd be fascinated to read an outline of events in 44BC or any other year, starting from the assumption that Octavian was 9say) a legatee of Caesar's will but not his heir, or able to take his name.

 

Phil

[M. Porcius Cato]

Without Caesar's will, Octavian would not have had the loyalty of Caesar's veterans nor the resources to accomplish their goals. Without Caesar's will, the senate would have had no reason whatever to "praise him, honor him, and put him aside", as Cicero famously suggested they do. Without Caesar's will, Octavian could not have outcompeted Antony.

 

The interesting question is what Antony would have done with no Octavian around. The latter was no great shakes on the battlefield (even a tyro like Brutus defeated him), but Antony was obviously easy to outwit, outlast, and outcompete in politics, which is why he always had to resort to his soldiers to get out of a jam. In no sense was Antony Caesar's heir, and I'm very far from a fan of Caesar.