Praetorian Guard

[Neos Dionysos]

Good point, they may not have been the best per' se, but they would have to be pretty good to be his bodyguards.

 

The Praetorians were a terrible organization. Any unit that kills off a good emperor and then auctions off the empire to the highest bidder is a terrible unit in my book, I can only think of one noteworthy military action they were a direct part of, and that being the battle of the Milvian Bridge. As Constatine drove his rivals forces, (and his rival), onto the pontoon bridge to be massacred and for them to kill themselves under the pressure of thier mass, the PG fought against Constatine's troops until nightfall when what remained of them finally surrendered. They were a good idea, but turned into a really bad one later on. The reason for many later emperors having German bodyguards was they could count on thier loyalty no matter what, because the lives of careers of the men not only depended on the person they guarded, but also because several times the emperor or general took care of the bodyguards' families, so any action against the commander or should he die, then they and thier families would die.

[caldrail]

Praetorians were an elite unit. But they knew it too, and exploited their privileges like any good roman. Trouble was, they were very close to men in power and I suspect many of them were a bit envious, so unless they were treated well they tended to get miffed as we see from the record of assassinations. Not only that, ambitious schemers would have used individual praetorians as spies and hired killers for handouts of cash. After all, why take the risk yourself when your enemy is guarded by disgruntled armed men?

[Centurion Legioneer]

The Praetorean guard were an Elite group of soldiers, and like you said caldrail, they knew it and often times, if not treated well or they did not like their leader. They would assasinate him, and take power or give the throne to, as someone else said in this thread, the highest bidder.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Praetorians were an elite unit. But they knew it too, and exploited their privileges like any good roman.

 

If Romans thought it was so admirable to exploit one's priviliges, why were there so many courts set up to prosecute those who did exploit their privileges? Why were men like Cincinnatus celebrated?

 

Let's remember--for the Romans of the Old Republic, "rex" was an insult.

[Neos Dionysos]

Praetorians were an elite unit. But they knew it too, and exploited their privileges like any good roman.

 

If Romans thought it was so admirable to exploit one's priviliges, why were there so many courts set up to prosecute those who did exploit their privileges? Why were men like Cincinnatus celebrated?

 

Let's remember--for the Romans of the Old Republic, "rex" was an insult.

 

Agreed, hence why Augustus was so careful to call himself something that would not offend the masses, (like Princeps).

 

I wonder just how much an elite they really were. Yes in the beginning they were hand picked, but what great military battles did they fight while they were on campaign with there emperors? What great combat awards/recgonition did they receive? It seems the PG became quite quickly a special club for men in the military. You served for 35 years instead of 25, and some, if they could, chose to stay IN the PG after thier time because, what did they do, they guarded some people, some buildings, were paid a LOT of extra money, were fed better, were equipped better and were able to shape Roman politics. The more I think about it, the more I think they were simply an over-glorified police force.

[Centurion Legioneer]

You made a good point Neos Dionysos, the Praetorean guard did not fight in any battles, unless defending the Emporer in Rome, or on Campaign. An in the beginning of the Roman Empire, they were hand picked but towards the end of the empire, they were just soldiers picked to be, not based on how good they were.

[caldrail]

Praetorians were an elite unit. But they knew it too, and exploited their privileges like any good roman.

 

If Romans thought it was so admirable to exploit one's priviliges, why were there so many courts set up to prosecute those who did exploit their privileges? Why were men like Cincinnatus celebrated?

 

Let's remember--for the Romans of the Old Republic, "rex" was an insult.

 

Roman ambivalence rears its head a lot doesn't it? There were all those laws and taboos but still many romans ignored them. However, as you quite rightly point out, many romans wanted to be good citizens. Some even commited scuicide because of an accusation, never mind a prosecution. The shame was too much to bear. others of course, squirmed and weasled their way out of problems while some stood firm and faced their accusers with honour.

Edited February 7, 2006 by caldrail

[Neos Dionysos]

Praetorians were an elite unit. But they knew it too, and exploited their privileges like any good roman.

 

If Romans thought it was so admirable to exploit one's priviliges, why were there so many courts set up to prosecute those who did exploit their privileges? Why were men like Cincinnatus celebrated?

 

Let's remember--for the Romans of the Old Republic, "rex" was an insult.

 

Roman ambivalence rears its head a lot doesn't it? There were all those laws and taboos but still many romans ignored them. However, as you quite rightly point out, many romans wanted to be good citizens. Some even commited scuicide because of an accusation, never mind a prosecution. The shame was too much to bear. others of course, squirmed and weasled their way out of problems while some stood firm and faced their accusers with honour.

 

 

You should remember though, in Roman culture, falling on your own sword was seen as a way to preserve your honor. In our eyes it is 'weaseling one's way out of it,' but not to Romans of the day.

[Primus Pilus]

I wonder just how much an elite they really were. Yes in the beginning they were hand picked, but what great military battles did they fight while they were on campaign with there emperors? What great combat awards/recgonition did they receive? It seems the PG became quite quickly a special club for men in the military. You served for 35 years instead of 25, and some, if they could, chose to stay IN the PG after thier time because, what did they do, they guarded some people, some buildings, were paid a LOT of extra money, were fed better, were equipped better and were able to shape Roman politics. The more I think about it, the more I think they were simply an over-glorified police force.

 

I believe I may have touched on this very issue earlier in this thread, but it is not so simple as saying they were either elite or not. The experience and ability of the Praetorians depended completely on the era and the emperor. While the early Julio-Claudians largely avoided major campaigns once they had attained the title of princeps, they at least accompanied Claudius to Britain (though certainly played a minor role). There was probably a contingent of praetorians with Titus in Judaea and Domitian was active on the Danube for a rather significant stretch of his reign.

 

Some praetorians probably saw considerable action and became hardened veterans under Trajan for instance, as they were assuredly involved in the campaigns in Dacia and in the east. Even the 23 year reign of Antoninus Pius (in which he stayed predominately within the city of Rome) was not entirely devoid of veterans left over from Trajan and Hadrian. Under Marcus Aurelius and Verus, there were definately praetorians along the Danube and in Parthia respectively. Even despite their mass dismissal by Septimius Severus he recruited new praetorians from among provincial veterans. These men then accompanied Severus on more eastern campaigns and were already legionary veterans to start with.

 

Essentially, the combat ability of the praetorians cannot be generalized because even more so than the legions, the participation of the praetorians was entirely dependent upon the man they served. Were they comparable to regular legions? No, likely not because while serving 'peaceful' emperors they did not garrison forts along provincial borders and such. Their status as an elite force is easily and entirely open to question, but its equally inaccurate to paint all the praetorian forces with the same broad stroke.

[Neos Dionysos]

Even despite their mass dismissal by Septimius Severus he recruited new praetorians from among provincial veterans. These men then accompanied Severus on more eastern campaigns and were already legionary veterans to start with.

 

The same men who then killed him in the East because his opponents spread the rumor he was going to kill the Prefect and top offices for an offensive, even though it was false, I love irony.

 

But no I agree... I guess sometimes it's hard not to generalize in some cases since you can read something and respond rather quickly w/o thinking it through. *shrug* Either way... my beleif in the end stays the same... they were more of a negative than a positive for Rome.

[caldrail]

I think you have to view the praetorians as an elite unit by status, not ability. Pay and perks were definitely better than the legions so entry into the praetorians would be seen as desirable. I don't think their training was any different, and given the relative lack of practice in combat possibly offset any advantage a newbie praetorian had by merit (apart from the occaisions when they did go to war that is, but their ability was still at the legionary level)

Edited February 9, 2006 by caldrail