Ursus Posted January 1, 2006 Report Share Posted January 1, 2006 YES; BECAUSE THERE WERE SO MANY BARBARIANS WITH GODS NAMED CERES AND OH SO HAPPENED TO BE GODS OF FERTILLITY!!YEAH RIGHT! Please don't type in all caps again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted January 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Incidentally 'cervoise' as a French word is still well known though it is no longer the current word for beer. If you read Asterix in French you'll find that cervoise is what they drink when they can't get magic potion. The word survives in Gaul and Spain (cerveza), an indication that it was current in the local Latin of those provinces of the Empire. I had read in one place that the Spanish started switching over from ceria to cerveza about the time (mid 15th century) the French were dropping cervoise for biere; which incidentally was to align with the word bier that the Germans used (which was from Latin: biber) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dalby Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 Incidentally 'cervoise' as a French word is still well known though it is no longer the current word for beer. If you read Asterix in French you'll find that cervoise is what they drink when they can't get magic potion. The word survives in Gaul and Spain (cerveza), an indication that it was current in the local Latin of those provinces of the Empire. I had read in one place that the Spanish started switching over from ceria to cerveza about the time (mid 15th century) the French were dropping cervoise for biere; which incidentally was to align with the word bier that the Germans used (which was from Latin: biber) I'd love to know where you read that. Yes it is true (according to Corominas's etym. dict. of Spanish) that cervesa > cerveza is recorded from the 15th century, though he still thinks it is directly descended from local Latin, not borrowed from early French. But in which Spanish texts is ceria to be found? I could have added Portuguese cerveja and (now that I look) Friulian (NE Italy) serveza to the modern descendants of cerevisia, although that Friulian word doesn't mean beer or ale, it means hops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted January 5, 2006 Report Share Posted January 5, 2006 ha ha ! I love this thread because I know so little of its learned and arcane arguments and discursions-if I was having a banquet you should all come and rowdily discuss this matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted January 6, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2006 I'd love to know where you read that. Yes it is true (according to Corominas's etym. dict. of Spanish) that cervesa > cerveza is recorded from the 15th century, though he still thinks it is directly descended from local Latin, not borrowed from early French. But in which Spanish texts is ceria to be found? Honestly Andrew, it was some half rate book on trivial etymology facts... Obviously, the editor failed to fill in the gap between the ancient Iberian use of ceria (mentioned by Pliny, Strabo, etc..) to the adoption of cerveza in the 15th. Without looking into it (cause now I'm extremely curious) I have no idea when the Iberian word Ceria was dropped for a local Latin term Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 (edited) Letter from Masculis to Cerialis ( Vindolanda tablets III 628). Masculis to Cerialis his praefectus, Greeting.Please , my lord, give instructions as to what you want us to have done tomorrow. Are we to return with the standard to (the shrine at.....) the crossroads all together ,or every other one (ie half of ) of us?....most fortunate and be well disposed towards me , farewell. My fellow soldiers have no beer.Please order some to be sent! from Masculis ,Decurion. Edited January 7, 2006 by Pertinax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dalby Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 ha ha ! I love this thread because I know so little of its learned and arcane arguments and discursions-if I was having a banquet you should all come and rowdily discuss this matter. I'll send for the dancing girls. You get the beer in Letter from Masculis to Cerialis ( Vindolanda tablets III 628).Masculis to Cerialis his praefectus, Greeting.Please , my lord, give instructions as to what you want us to have done tomorrow. Are we to return with the standard to (the shrine at.....) the crossroads all together ,or every other one (ie half of ) of us?....most fortunate and be well disposed towards me , farewell. My fellow soldiers have no beer.Please order some to be sent! from Masculis ,Decurion. Now there's an NCO with a real concern for the men's morale. Great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 (edited) There is another tablet detailing rations including ....beer, gruel, pig's trotters and pork crackling. Doesnt sound too bad at all if you recall that gruel was ( and im sure you can give us the lowdown) a medium for meat/ assorted game if available. The Beer and crackling sound good if a bit indulgent. Lots of fat and calories for heavy work and fighting. I am just wading into the tablets at present , they are amazing -not least because they demonstrate how constant , written communication was used to overcome technological/logistical problems. A further note: I see that spelt was the grain of choice for brewing beer consumed at Vindolanda-more difficult to hull but more nutritious than modern wheat. Edited January 10, 2006 by Pertinax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dalby Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 A further note: I see that spelt was the grain of choice for brewing beer consumed at Vindolanda-more difficult to hull but more nutritious than modern wheat. What word do they use for 'spelt', Pertinax? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 (edited) A further note: I see that spelt was the grain of choice for brewing beer consumed at Vindolanda-more difficult to hull but more nutritious than modern wheat. What word do they use for 'spelt', Pertinax? "frumenti" is quoted (wheat surely) but spelt given as the substance. I am not a Latin Scholar , ill dig deeper. and "cervesa" for beer quoted in the general info but I see "ceruesa" in the text translated as "celtic beer" does this make any sense to yourself or Pantagathus? Edited January 11, 2006 by Pertinax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantagathus Posted January 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 (edited) What word do they use for 'spelt', Pertinax? "frumenti" is quoted (wheat surely) but spelt given as the substance. I am not a Latin Scholar , ill dig deeper. I think Mr. Dalby might be baiting you Pertinax... One of the primary latin words for spelt would elicit a bit of a chuckle from some of the more callow members of this forum... frumenti is more the generic term for grain (the actual 'corn' or kernels). Did the Latin text have the word ador in front of it? That would define the grain as spelt. (As I understand it... ) far or farris is another particular to look for in regards to spelt. Edited January 11, 2006 by Pantagathus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 (edited) What word do they use for 'spelt', Pertinax? "frumenti" is quoted (wheat surely) but spelt given as the substance. I am not a Latin Scholar , ill dig deeper. I think Mr. Dalby might be baiting you Pertinax... One of the primary latin words for spelt would elicit a bit of a chuckle from some of the more callow members of this forum... That just shows that wit and irony do not commend themselves to the typed word! The trap was so large I didnt see it! Edited January 11, 2006 by Pertinax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dalby Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 What word do they use for 'spelt', Pertinax? "frumenti" is quoted (wheat surely) but spelt given as the substance. I am not a Latin Scholar , ill dig deeper. I think Mr. Dalby might be baiting you Pertinax... One of the primary latin words for spelt would elicit a bit of a chuckle from some of the more callow members of this forum... That just shows that wit and irony do not commend themselves to the typed word! The trap was so large I didnt see it! As if I would!! No, I asked because the words that really identify spelt (e.g. /scandala/) crop up very rarely in Latin texts. But some translators give /far/ as 'spelt' (it is really emmer) and some, relying on one of Pliny's misunderstandings, translate /braces/ as 'spelt' when it really means 'malt' or 'malted barley'. This in turn can lead to the statement that cervesa was made from spelt, when it's much more likely it was made from malted barley (and whether you call it Celtic or not is up to you!) So I was wondering whether spelt really deserves to be in there on this occasion or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 I think your interpretation is actually much more likely, one obvious rejoinder is that barley is freely available in this area and time-and from the many fragments ive looked at the last remark about braces is the most perrtinent , I havent seen any references to scandala at all (so far-but my eyes are getting very tired!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted January 27, 2006 Report Share Posted January 27, 2006 Lacertus is seeking information on Borage as a beer in relation to Celtic culture, I am up to my neck in photo editing at present-and my "sacred beers" has still not arrived! I will take up this post in a day or two but if Pantagathus or AD have quick references or links please post here chaps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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