The Personal Guard

[Germanicus]

Sorry Rameses but I must - first you said:-

 

It is historically accurate.

 

Eventually you totally reversed your original position saying :-

 

I don't use it for historical information. I use it for game cinematics to see how scenarios would have played out. You guys may think that this is where I get my information from, I don't. I get it from books at my local library to see the details of the battle.

 

 

Back to bodygaurds, Cato I just remembered the Extraordinarii - as described by Polybius - seems very bodygaurd like in the description, as the units were to serve near the person of and under the supervision of, the Consul :-

 

When they are all met together, the distribution of the allies, who are assembled also with the Romans, is regulated by twelve officers, called prefects, and appointed by the consuls, in the following manner. They first choose out from all the allies a body of the bravest and most skillful soldiers, both cavalry and infantry, to serve near the person, and under the immediate orders, of the consuls. These are called the extraordinary, or selected troops. The whole infantry of the allies is usually the same in number with that of the Romans; but the cavalry three times as many. Among these, about a third part of the cavalry, and a fifth part of the infantry, are set apart as extra-ordinaries

 

This would qualify as pre Sertorius.

[Furius Venator]

I wondered about them too, but excluded them on the grounds that they were more a reserve than bodyguard. It's an arguable point though.

[Neos Dionysos]

Sigh. I wonder how much Roman history people pick up from war games. This kind of thing is always popping up.

 

Well the same for those who take history as fact from movies like Gladiator... where the only bits of truth are buried under Hollywood action...

 

Be glad people aren't taking history from the game "Spartan: Total Warrior", I'll spare you the details but if you knew what they used for history in it you might cringe with horror and frustration...

 

Rome: Total War is so full of blantant historical inaccuracies that... you shouldn't use it as a source for historical infromation - never.

 

That it is, though I will say that Rome: Total Realism is not and "tries" to be as accurate to history as the game can allow, not by simply looking info up and using it and making units up, but having fully accredited professors supervise and lend helping hands to the work to make sure the info is accurate... but it can never be 100%.

 

 

 

To add to the discussion... I've always wondered what happened directly after the Praetorian Guard's disbandment. There had to be something and I cannot as of yet find anything that crops up of major importance until several decades later when you see the Scholae as being not only palace guards but more like units paid for and supplied by and even used, by civilian aristocrats on estates as well as generals and emperors.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Neos Dionysos

[Quintus]

I was thinking, would the consul's lictors count as a sort of primitive personal body gaurd?

(just a thought)

[Primus Pilus]

I was thinking, would the consul's lictors count as a sort of primitive personal body gaurd?

(just a thought)

 

Yes they were bodyguards but as the Lictors were also a symbol of the magistrate's imperium the function served a different purpose than the Praetorian. Despite their function as a form of bodyguard they were not soldiers. This concept developed completely within a military perspective and was not truly related to the lictors whose occupation did continue despite its lessened meaning under the principate.

 

I suppose what might be an interesting relationship is whether or not Lictors in the Principate period were hand selected from among the Praetorians rather than the citizen body as was traditional. Certainly magistrates were able to hand pick Lictors, but it would be interesting if they were assigned from among the existing Praetorians. But in theory it would make more sense for a member of the Imperial family to be accompanied by both Lictors and Praetorians when applicable, as both a show of tradition and a show of force.

[Germanicus]

There is a section in Polybius, on the Roman Army where he is describing the layout of the camp of a consular army :-

 

Behind the last of the tribunes' tents on either side, and more or less at right angles to these, are the quarters of the cavalry picked out from the extraordinarii, and also those of a number of volunteers[1] who serve out of personal friendship for the consul

 

This is footnoted, and the footnote says:-[1] These were veterans who re-enlisted on special terms and formed a bodygaurd for the General.

[Primus Pilus]

There is a section in Polybius, on the Roman Army where he is describing the layout of the camp of a consular army :-

 

Behind the last of the tribunes' tents on either side, and more or less at right angles to these, are the quarters of the cavalry picked out from the extraordinarii, and also those of a number of volunteers[1] who serve out of personal friendship for the consul

 

This is footnoted, and the footnote says:-[1] These were veterans who re-enlisted on special terms and formed a bodygaurd for the General.

 

Ah yes thank you greatly. Considering the heavy focus of Polybius on the Punic Wars and the army of the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC, that is a bit of confirmation on the idea of Scipio Africanus having a praetoria style personal guard. I've been perusing Livy... but to no avail so far.

[Quintus]

Yes they were bodyguards but as the Lictors were also a symbol of the magistrate's imperium the function served a different purpose than the Praetorian. Despite their function as a form of bodyguard they were not soldiers. This concept developed completely within a military perspective and was not truly related to the lictors whose occupation did continue despite its lessened meaning under the principate.

 

I suppose what might be an interesting relationship is whether or not Lictors in the Principate period were hand selected from among the Praetorians rather than the citizen body as was traditional. Certainly magistrates were able to hand pick Lictors, but it would be interesting if they were assigned from among the existing Praetorians. But in theory it would make more sense for a member of the Imperial family to be accompanied by both Lictors and Praetorians when applicable, as both a show of tradition and a show of force.

 

Would the lictors be men hoping to go into a political carrer, or were they soldiers from the legions?

[caldrail]

I thought lictors were the same as bailiffs?