Pertinax Posted February 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 **interjecting a completely new topic here** Is there any record of Romans using honey infused with other things (herbs and the like)? Or did they simply use the honey "straight"? My initial observation is that honey farmers planted many types of fragrant tree/shrub/plant to give specific savour (and mixed fragrance) to the product. Faas (Around The Roman Table) cites oregano,poppy, saffron,ivy and clovers as the Lme,peach , almond and oak are attested likewise. Honey from vegetable dominated holdings was considered inferior.Var RR II speaks of "the fig supplies poor honey, a good quality comes from alfalfa [multi mineral fixative] and the best from Thyme". Andrew Dalby ( Empire of Pleasures) mentions the excellence of the thyme flavourd Grecian honey supplied to Rome from Hymettium.As a counter to this Corsican honey is mentioned for its biterness (wether due to hemlock or box he demures to say).I think AD may wish to speak for himself though... So the infusion was "in the pre-packaging stage". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Dalby Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 **interjecting a completely new topic here** Is there any record of Romans using honey infused with other things (herbs and the like)? Or did they simply use the honey "straight"? My initial observation is that honey farmers planted many types of fragrant tree/shrub/plant to give specific savour (and mixed fragrance) to the product. Faas (Around The Roman Table) cites oregano,poppy, saffron,ivy and clovers as the Lme,peach , almond and oak are attested likewise. Honey from vegetable dominated holdings was considered inferior.Var RR II speaks of "the fig supplies poor honey, a good quality comes from alfalfa [multi mineral fixative] and the best from Thyme". Andrew Dalby ( Empire of Pleasures) mentions the excellence of the thyme flavourd Grecian honey supplied to Rome from Hymettium.As a counter to this Corsican honey is mentioned for its biterness (wether due to hemlock or box he demures to say).I think AD may wish to speak for himself though... So the infusion was "in the pre-packaging stage". Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself. It all depends on the bees. Where the bees browse, there browse I. Notice that Trimalchio (in Petronius's Satyricon), missing a crucial detail, imported bees to Italy from Hymettus (I think it was) so as to get the best honey. All those sailors stung by bees, and all to no purpose, since he failed to import a hillside of thyme at the same time. My daughter has given me a pot of borage honey. Lovely. And borage grows wild in our garden (like it or not) and I am wondering whether to learn the gentle art of beekeeping ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted February 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 How odd, I am making my "Roman Bread" with a local borage honey, it has a very pleasant taste has it not? The medicinal virtue of the plant resides in its ability to 1. reduce in situ sebaceous growths 2. reduce prostaic swelling and 3. act as a psycho-active hallucogen when added to a fermented mead , hence the Brythonic usage as a pre-combat inebriant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Octavius Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Caught a History Channel documentary about Carthage last night. It claimed that a Carthaginian ship was found a while back with a great amount of cannabis in it. This was alleged to have been used to calm the rowers. Same for the Roman Navy and other ancient navies? GO can you give me a link for this at all? I would have expected Datura stramonium as the likeliest N African recreational relaxant . http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?act=mo...=si&img=180 Yes, I'd like more on that. In what form was the cannabis discovered? You can make ropes from this species, as well as smoke it ... Sorry, gentlemen, I can't find a citation. You have only my ears. Perhaps someone else may have seen the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 So were different honeys from different places used in different ways medicinally? All that is commonly available in the US is clover honey... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted February 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Caught a History Channel documentary about Carthage last night. It claimed that a Carthaginian ship was found a while back with a great amount of cannabis in it. This was alleged to have been used to calm the rowers. Same for the Roman Navy and other ancient navies? It doesn't mean they smoked it. A cargo destined for medecinal use? How do they know it was used to calm the sailors? Seems a bit strange, because rowers and lookouts aren't going to give their best if they're feeling overly relaxed! There's no supportive evidence as far as I'm aware for drug use aboard roman vessels. One would anticipate that a vigorous cardiac stimulant would be more helpful in this situation. The cannabaciae make an excellent eye wash (as an infusion), and we know that eye salves were a most sought after patent medicine in the Roman world.Was this supposed to be a fighting vessel , because if so (given the nature of vesel construction and usage ) we might anticipate no significant cargo only usable materials and supplies? Pantagathus might have some information on commonplace ropemaking? So were different honeys from different places used in different ways medicinally? All that is commonly available in the US is clover honey... The price of honey ran on a sliding scale (like olive oil) so it seems that a hierarchy of desired taste and efficacy existed.Ill have to delve further for specific use as a prescribed medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 The cannabaciae make an excellent eye wash (as an infusion), and we know that eye salves were a most sought after patent medicine in the Roman world. Why were they so desired in the ancient world? Was it the same reason Visene is popular today (simple dry eyes) or was there some other reason? (a common eye ailment for instance? or a "quack cure all"?) and how was it used? (I know eyedrops are pretty easy, but I can't imagine it would be easy trying to use an actual salve in your eye.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted February 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 The cannabaciae make an excellent eye wash (as an infusion), and we know that eye salves were a most sought after patent medicine in the Roman world. Why were they so desired in the ancient world? Was it the same reason Visene is popular today (simple dry eyes) or was there some other reason? (a common eye ailment for instance? or a "quack cure all"?) and how was it used? (I know eyedrops are pretty easy, but I can't imagine it would be easy trying to use an actual salve in your eye.) The problem here is a common one in terms of surviving evidence (in a robust form) versus absence of evidence of plausibly related items. If I refer back to Cruse on "Roman Medicine" (in Britain particularly) , the finds of eye salve "stamps"( the vendor/physicians "branding") is quite well documented, and seems to give evidence of a widespread itinerant trade overlapping general urban usage. The stamps are small, tough discrete items, and like coinage would tend to survive where larger or perishable items would vanish. Certainly conjunctivitis seems to have been widespread, it is of course highly contagious and a military unit in barracks would be a susceptible host population. A lack of vitamin C and B in the diet would exacerbate the situation , setting the scene , like scurvy to undermine general health. Vitamin B2 is the specific missing link when the eyes become dry and uncomfortable (as though having grit in them) , the most direct source would be offal meats (liver/kidneys).One can imagine a reduced fresh food intake in winter in remote provinces. I could suggest several herbs that might help the eye that were in common use in the Roman world, as a wash of course, but for portability a salve suggests itself as more appropriate . If a vendor were itinerant then one might feel his stock would be of salves rather than bulkier liquids. However, that the eye salve stamps survive and other medicinal ephemera do not , doesnt mean that the salves were an especially important trade ,only that we have no other hard evidence for other "specialisms". Nowadays people still happily squirt drops into their eyes without thought, anything put onto the eye can (to a greater or lesser degree) affect the lens by osmosis into the eyeball. As to quackery ,then and now , I suggest the age old pareto distribution of experienced and authentic physicians ( in any type of medicinal discipline plant or chemical) 20/80 good to ineffective. http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/e/eyebri20.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Conjunctivitis is "pink eye" right? Something I was fortunate never to get, but which I hear is extremely uncomfortable. How were the "stamps" used? I'm as guilty as the next guy of using Visene, simply because my eyes dry out overnight and I can't open them in the morning (at least in winter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted February 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Conjunctivitis is "pink eye" right? Something I was fortunate never to get, but which I hear is extremely uncomfortable. How were the "stamps" used? I'm as guilty as the next guy of using Visene, simply because my eyes dry out overnight and I can't open them in the morning (at least in winter). Correct, the commonest cause is direct bacterial infection of the eye, I have seen it provoked by stress and ( in a context relevant to Rome) exposure to harvested crops (possibly a combination of physical irritation, bacterial spores liberated into the air or fungal parasites of some crops) . At Vindolanda the contagion was given sufficient respect as to have infected men quarantined from other wounded or sick men. The stamps were used to impress the vendors name on a semi solidified block of patent medicine, a modern suggestion as to appearence would be something like a block of pears soap or perhaps a bar of beeswax.They are known as collyrium stamps , they are not for eye salves alone but a majority of finds are eye related.The majority of finds are skewed to the NW of the Empire and seem to be lacking elsewhere. The stamps are suggested to be of military origin (ie: a standard product getting an accredited identity).Another theory relates to the heavy number of finds in Britain indicating a different medical setup in that province, that Doctors formed urban collegia and sent out branded goods via representatives to outlying areas. Not too long since this item: http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...ficial%26sa%3DG Petit's eye salve was on sale in the US! A nice morphine salve.And a quick look at Amazon shows 1170 eye products available today (for vanity /anti-ageing /"medicinal" use), I wonder if the Urban trade had a vanity component? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 I thought that would be what the stamps were used for but I wasn't sure. Morphine eye salve...what was that supposed to be used for? I'd think through the eye would be a good way to get stoned quickly, but other than that... As for all the eye products for sale today, well, I think that modern pollution as well as the makeup worn by most females (myself included) is a big part of the "dry eye" issues. Same problems, different cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted February 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 I was pondering on antimony as an "eye shadow" in the Roman world , I have mentioned previously that a lot of this supposed antimony was actually charred frankinscence in a fat base (lard/olive oil) so that this very toxic product was not in as common a usage as widely supposed. Anything placed around the eye socket is drawn into the body very readily, mainly because of a lack of subcutaenoeus fat in this area, so it would in fact be a good way to poison someone . This is why I am very much opposed to parabens, lauryth sulphate and other stabilising chemicals in grooming products, they generally pollute the body and have a direct route in certain areas (eye, armpit, groin). Whale fat or lard would be just fine id say! Actually I wonder if we should have a look at Roman cosmetics and vanity products , I dont think weve explored that area much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 That is a great idea. I don't know much on the subject (other than that men were said to wear cleopatra-like eye makeup on occasion). We should start another thread on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted February 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 That is a great idea. I don't know much on the subject (other than that men were said to wear cleopatra-like eye makeup on occasion). We should start another thread on that. Im trying to get some collyrium images sourced , but that might be tricky. I will post if I get a lead. The use of makeup cross gender is interesting , given that we have a society where Judaeo-Christian notions of body shame are absent (certainly in the late Republican era at the very least) and modern "definitions" of sexuality are absent this would be worth some study.The use of cosmetics in other cultures and historical epochs certainly informs us that women were not the sole users of such items The chemical make up of grooming products and any magical/medicinal virtues would likewise be an interesting area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Agreed! I hope you find those images! This would make for a very interesting article as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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