Starting Of Greek Civilization

[Rameses the Great]

Since civilization obviously was not put in the outright beginning of Greece, I am wondering how they attained it. Who did it come from? How was it influenced, and from what nations?

 

I want to know, how did it became powerful and civilized? I am based on it was heavily influenced by Egypt. Some of you disagree, so is there any other explanation? Mesopatamia and Egypt seem like the only logical answers, since Greece attained cilization in the middle of that time.

[phil25]

There were many Greek cultures and civilisations - Maecenaean, (maybe Minoan before that), Dorian, the age of tyrants and of Solon, classical, Macedonian, Hellenistic - but if you mean the classical world of Athens and Sparta, the age of Pericles, then my analyss would be this.

 

They had behind them the example and the legends of the world of the Trojan War - Maecenae was never lost or forgotten They had a "literature" in the words of Homer.

 

Throwing out the tyrants (rather like Rome throwing out the kings) gave politics and the energy of the state a boost. Solon gave wise laws.

 

There was interchange with the Ionian/Asian greek city states (Miletus etc) and victory in the Persian wars gave Athens at least renewed confidence and sea power.

 

Pericles presided over a state (and its democractic nature may have been important to its creativity) which valued the arts and sciences, debate and learning. hence their high culture and achievements (Parthenon, plays, sculpture, poetry) which still demand admiration.

 

What do others think?

 

Phil

[DecimusCaesar]

Early Greek Culture of the Bronze Age was somewhat influenced by the cultures of the near east and Egypt. The architecture ( the columned buildings - based on those from Egypt) the writing, Linear B made use of hieroglyphic symbols like Egypt, their arms and armour were similar to those used throughout the Near east (Chariot Warfare of the Hittites and Egyptians) although there were some infuences from the north of Greece in these armour styles. The Cultures of about 1600-1100 BC were part of the first globally connected culture in history - their art is a testament to this even if some other aspects of their culture were not. The Greeks had contact with their near eastern and Egyptian neighbours writing Akkadian in cuneiform script for diplomatic purposes. These foreign contacts would have influenced Greece, but even so, they still only had a minor influence on the country. Many other aspects of Greek society would have been home-grown.

Edited October 17, 2006 by DecimusCaesar

[Andrew Dalby]

Throwing out the tyrants (rather like Rome throwing out the kings) gave politics and the energy of the state a boost. Solon gave wise laws.

...

Pericles presided over a state (and its democractic nature may have been important to its creativity) which valued the arts and sciences, debate and learning. hence their high culture and achievements (Parthenon, plays, sculpture, poetry) which still demand admiration.

 

As regards tyrants I think it isn't as simple as that. In ancient Greek cities "tyrants" (the word has a different meaning now) were often populist leaders who gained power with a mission to get the old aristocrats out. And sometimes they served their purpose and laid the foundations for democracy.

[phil25]

I agree, AD, and I used the word "tyrant" in its greek sense - I had always thought that the expulsion of the Peisistratid dynasty from Athens was seen as marking a particular stage in the political growth of the city-state - even though Peisistratus himself was not altogether a malign force.

 

Phil

[Kosmo]

As others said greeks borrowed many things from others including writing from phoenicians but the bases of their culture were unique. Not only the memories of the micenian world and of Sea Peoples are an explanation.

Essential was the emergence of the city states and the shifting power balance. The effects were political division, colonisation but also a completly diferent kind of thinking that combined geometry, philosophy, dinamic politics and heavy infantry with iron weapons.

The word revolution it's overused, but it is accurate in this case. Greek civilisation was not tehnolgicaly superior and her tehnical achievements were maybe not impressive, but their thinking was different and that made the difference.

[Rameses the Great]

I understand that much of the Greek cultures and traditions were home grown. However during the Mycenean era many buildings and engineering feats came from Egypt. Many Greeks at that time visited Egypt and if I'm not mistaken many were taught there?

 

Greek civilisation was not tehnolgicaly superior and her tehnical achievements were maybe not impressive, but their thinking was different and that made the difference.

 

They were indeed a bit different in their thinking. However their technology and minds were indeed brilliant and above any Mediterranian nation for a long period of time.

[DecimusCaesar]

I understand that much of the Greek cultures and traditions were home grown. However during the Mycenean era many buildings and engineering feats came from Egypt. Many Greeks at that time visited Egypt and if I'm not mistaken many were taught there?

 

Egypt had many links with the Mycenaean World, interestingly enough a plaque with the cartouche of the Egyptian Pharaoh Amenhotep III was found in the cult centre room at Mycenae. I'm not sure how this symbol of the Pharaoh of Egypt found it's way to Mycenae but it does show that were important links between the two cultures. These links with Egypt and the near east were both diplomatic and based on trade. I'm sure that a lot of Mycenean material culture was based on that of Minoan people of Crete and the Minoans were heavily influenced by the Egyptians.

[phil25]

But were the Minoans a separate culture, DC? Or did Sir Arthur Evans get it wrong?

 

To me the "palaces" at Knossos (Crete) and Pylos (Greece) look awfully similar.

 

Phil

[Pantagathus]

However during the Mycenean era many buildings and engineering feats came from Egypt. Many Greeks at that time visited Egypt and if I'm not mistaken many were taught there?

Rubbish on both counts!

 

One way of interpreting what the first historians say about early Greece is that the Pelasgians (as enigmatic as they are) laid the foundations for

[AEGYPTUS]

There is evidence to suggest that Greek Culture and Architecture was heavily influenced by the one of the great trading powers of the Mediterranean the Minoans of Crete. There is a theory that the Cyclades were slowly colonized by Cretans they eventually reached main land Greece by island hoping. This would explain similarities in arcithecture and culuture.

[DecimusCaesar]

I apologise for my mistake. I made a similar mistake to Sir Arthur Evans. Associating material culture found at archaelogical sites to deem that that area was heavily influenced (or in some cases conquered by) a certain neighbouring culture. I think he claimed that the Minoans had ruled over the Bronze Age Aegean and that they were the dominant culture of the late Bronze Age when in fact it was revealed after his death that the Mycenaeans had conquered Crete.

[Pantagathus]

There is a theory that the Cyclades were slowly colonized by Cretans they eventually reached main land Greece by island hoping. This would explain similarities in arcithecture and culuture.

But! consider how the Cretans got to their island in the first place... More than likely due to the steady northern wind that blows from mainland Greece to Crete...

 

As a clue to Aegean Island colonization during the Neolithic, I offer this very interesting Pliny anecdote for consideration:

 

There are some writers to be found, who are of opinion that they (Coracles/Curraghs) were first thought of by the Mysians and the Trojans, for the purpose of crossing the Hellespont into Thrace. Even at the present day, they are made in the British ocean, of wicker-work covered with hides... Pliny 7.57

 

However, Pliny also mentions 'King Erythras' as an early pioneer of sea travel by rafts with sails in the 'Red Sea' which is curious because I take him to mean Erythrus ('founder' of Erythrae in Ionia) who in myth was the son of Rhadamanthus from Crete which fits the main pattern of colonization from Crete.

[Rameses the Great]

One way of interpreting what the first historians say about early Greece is that the Pelasgians (as enigmatic as they are) laid the foundations for

[Pantagathus]

I understand, but you are saying it as if though Egypt was practically dead to the Greeks at that time. For example the idea of burying the dead nobles in a dome was directly taken from the same idea the Egyptians had. Phoenicia really had nothing to do with it, since Assyria and Egypt claimed it during that time.

 

:frusty:

 

Rameses, just because A & D both have X does not mean that A gave X to D... Late Bronze Age Iberians in the southeast of the peninsula also used Tholos burials. Are you now going to argue that the Egyptians and Assyrians taught them that directly? I'm not saying that there was no link, you just have to seek certain links by way of intermediaries...

 

Also, Pythagoras one of the first Greek philosophers was indeed taught in Egypt. It also says that Pythagoras was half Tyrian. Does that mean he was half Semitic?

See this is the problem with your inquiry, you need to sort out the dates and time frame that you are truely curious about so we can help answer your question better. You asked for the beginning, that to me indicates you want to start with Mycaeneans or Minoans in the Bronze Age. Pythagoras lived in the Classical period, after Egypt was 'inclined' to open it's doors to foreigners in the 7th Century BC.

 

Half Tyrian means he was half Phoenician (Semitic - yes).