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  1. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    forum senate / curiata the plebian was enrolled in the senate centuriata tributa 241 bc the final 2 tribe was added, making a total of 35. Thereafter new citizens were enrolled in the existing tribe, so that these lost their geographical significance. also during this period the comitia suffered a radical reform. {Ibid] the comitia tributa now have 35 blocks of tribe X10 =350 + 18 equites.
  2. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    the plebian was enrolled in the senate byTarquin the First to weaken the patrician influence, he is said to have increased the senate to 300. [ibid] early republic when the 17 tribes was organized later after the foundation of the republic, the concilium plebis was reorganized on the same basis of these, sometime later a comitia tributa of the whole people was organized on the same basis. [ibid]
  3. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    i am just pointing out where a name assembly do originally begun. so novice could track... and made some comparative study of each books or author presentation.
  4. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    the plebian was enrolled in the senate byTarquin the First to weaken the patrician influence, he is said to have increased the senate to 300. [ibid]
  5. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    i will take your friendly advise... hands off and keep only on information and references. on the story of...the assembly? curiata? centuriata? tributa? in the beginning... was the Forum. i think no needs to back it up. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rome emerged into history with an elected king, a senate of 100 elders [patres] which was advisory, ...and by a popular assembly of the clans [curiae], the comitia curiata conferred on to the new king his imperium and have a slight legislative power. A Handbook of Universal History, William H. Tillinghast
  6. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    When are you talking about? The shadowy regal period? Certainly by the second century, the comitia centuriata was not a legislative body. Laws and treaties were decided by the tribal assemblies, not by the antiquated comitia centuriata. my period was early republic... and the comitia centuriata. can you kindly point to me any known local tribal assembly? any namesake? and point to me how a proposal law become a lex? or legally binding to all Roman? i do not know how a local tribe can imposed their law to all the tribe of Rome. any Forum.
  7. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    is your stand "as a result of having been granted citizenship under the Constitutio Antoniniana" is enough as citizen to become prefecti? how about the Roman cursus honorum tradition? that dictate the nobiles young sons upward mobility in military and political ladder. to be a 500 men cavalry officer as prefecti, you must be a noble patres or plebes. where did your citizen get his nobiles?, to become prefecti. roman wargamer, I was addressing your assertion that the Syrian soldier in question had been "adopted into a noble family." I gave you evidence, based on the soldier's name, that this was most likely not the case. I repeat, Roman adoption did not work the way you imagine. Apparently, quite a few things about the ancient Romans did not quite work the way you imagine. Try to have a cool day, -- Nephele i also hope you have a good night sleep, so you could also have a fresh next day. it is not my assertion, my answer was a possible way, to repeat a theory reply. are you really certain with your answer is not an opinionated and shall class it as facts. by the way, how is Caldrail, please give my regards. tell him cheer up. "wars begin where you will but they do not end where you please." Machiavelli
  8. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    the power of patrician censor census- the listing of Roman citizen for tax and military service purposes regimen morum- investigating the morals of the members of the class citizen recognitio- the power to grants new upward class status to men of virtue A Handbook of Universal History, William H. Tillinghast The power to grant new upward class status? But was that an exclusive right? In any case, the censor is only formalising an existing situation. If a man reaches the necessary qualification to be admitted to the senate, then the cenors role makkes sense, as he's confirming this mans achievement and making it clear to the senate that he has become a member of their select club. The only reason this power existed was because the numbers in the senate were limited, in order to maintain status and privilege. I think you'll find the censors power to elevate a man were done as a confirmation, not as an executive decision, and that he would not concern himself with lesser ranks overly. In any case, there were plenty of romans pretending to be something they weren't. Slaves pretended to be free men, free men pretended to be slaves. Certainly if caught these people were hauled in front of a magistrate, but did the censor worry about that? He was there as a senate membership auditor. Further, he had no jurisdiction of the roman military as far as I can see, and military service was one way to advance your status. A man promoted from the ranks to centurion was already operating in a role considered worthy of equites. The censor had no involvement in that. you are talking out of knowledge!! the censor take responsibility only on the class citizen, who are qualified for military service. for your information: the confirmation as you say to appoint or become a senator was called lectio senatus, Caldrail, not the recognitio., that i mention that grant new upward class status to men of virtue lectio senatus-the power to enroll new senator An Encyclopaedia of World History William L. Langer, Harvard University further; recognitio equites- the power to grant equites class status to centuriones of virtue An Encyclopaedia of World History William L. Langer, Harvard University i hope it will help you to become better informed in the future.
  9. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    is your stand "as a result of having been granted citizenship under the Constitutio Antoniniana" is enough as citizen to become prefecti? how about the Roman cursus honorum tradition? that dictate the nobiles young sons upward mobility in military and political ladder. to be a 500 men cavalry officer as prefecti, you must be a noble patres or plebes. where did your citizen get his nobiles?, to become prefecti.
  10. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    the power of patrician censor census- the listing of Roman citizen for tax and military service purposes regimen morum- investigating the morals of the members of the class citizen recognitio- the power to grants new upward class status to men of virtue A Handbook of Universal History, William H. Tillinghast
  11. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    being adopted by the nobiles Roman family, as heir will suffice to inherit legally all the privelege of his adoptor. is one of the lex or legal way, to climb the Roman cursus honorum in your lifetime. It is highly unlikely that the Syrian in question had been adopted into a noble Roman family. Roman adoptions didn't quite work that way. Plus, if the tombstone quoted by Northern Neil dates from the 3rd century onwards, the name of the Syrian in question -- "M. Aurelius Alexander" -- indicates that, far from having been "adopted" into a noble Roman family, he (or an earlier family member) received that Roman name as a result of having been granted citizenship under the Constitutio Antoniniana, when freeborn subjects throughout the Roman empire adopted the nomen gentilicium of "Aurelius" out of gratitude to the emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus. -- Nephele hello Nephele of course, all answer to that kind of question shall be doubtful, even the best theory answer. but adoption by plebian is the best place to begin as prefecti.
  12. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    being adopted by the nobiles Roman family, as heir will suffice to inherit legally all the privelege of his adoptor. is one of the lex or legal way, to climb the Roman cursus honorum in your lifetime.
  13. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    There wasn't any membership...and any eligible citizen can pop down to Campus Martius and add their vote to the total. Servius Tullius chief contribution to the Roman history was the substitution for the hereditary clans a new military division into classes and the centuries, was base on wealth and arms. Upon this arrangement depended a new assembly, the comitia centuriata the voting was taken over from comitia curiata. A Handbook of Universal History, William H. Tillinghast at this period, Rome have only 4 tribe confederation. see references below; The Roman Army, 500-350BC by Gaius Octavius Notes from: "Hannibal" (The Roman Army), The Early Army of Rome 500-350BC; Theodore Ayrault Dodge. Earliest: Three Tribes each required to produce 1,000 foot and 100 horse. Foot divided into 10 centuries of 100 men. Horse divided into 10 decuries of 10 men. (After first mounted mob and second Dorian Phalanx.) King or leader had a personal guard of 300 mounted men called celeres. They were paid and kept constantly at the ready. Each 1,000 foot were commanded by a tribune (~colonel). Each century by a centurion (~captain). Servius Tullius: 168 centuries of foot divided into 4 legions of 4,200 foot (42 centuries); 2 legions of juniores, aged 17-45. 2 legions of seniores, aged 46-60. A cavalry arm 2,400 strong. There also were centuries of pioneers and musicians.
  14. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    There wasn't any membership. It was a voting assembly. The presiding officer calls for a vote, and any eligible citizen can pop down to Campus Martius and add their vote to the total. Thats roman democracy. The only limitation was that it wasn't a free vote. You had to add your vote to a senior romans. Secondly, changes in social status are circumstantial and have absolutely nothing to do with the 'Senate Censor'. Adrian Goldsworthy in The Complete Roman Army mentions that social mobility was always possible. fallacy in the concept of probability. and reason of possibility, will not conform to the tradition and law of ancient Rome. Marius did it, but did it with the help of Julii Patres influence. Gaius Marius was the son of a small plebeian farmer near Arpinum. Contrary to popular belief, the Marius clan was influential locally, and maintained some limited client relationships with those in Rome. Of equestrian, but outside roots, Marius would find his early attempts to climb the Roman social and political ladder difficult at best. Using the Legion as his route to fame, fortune and power, he would become among the most influential men of his day, and the history of Rome. Ancient sources suggest that Marius was pre-destined, through the visions of a seer, to be Consul of Rome 7 times. Not only would this prove true, but he would eventually be hailed as the third founder of Rome, and its savior. Military glory and personal ambition drove Marius straight to the top of the Roman system, but perhaps even more importantly, the man and his legacy would have a profound impact on the life of his nephew, Gaius Julius Caesar. As a youth Marius may have used his modest family influence to join the legions as a junior officer, or may have risen from the ranks. It is difficult to determine exactly, but it is known that he spent his early career in Hispania under Scipio Aemilianus, grandson of Scipio Africanus. Performing his duties admirably he quickly was promoted. By 123 BC, at the age of 34, the veteran officer was elected as quaestor and his political career was off the ground. As a novus homo, or new man, Marius found the rise in the Roman cursus honorum a daunting challenge. It is certain that he used his old family client contacts and his military relations as a source of support. Among these contacts were the powerful Metelli family, and their early support was to prove to be a disaster for them. Just a few short years after his service as Quaestor, Marius was elected Tribune of the Plebes in 119 BC. In this position so soon after the political turmoil and murder of the Gracchi brothers (Gaius murdered 123 BC), Marius chose to follow the populares path make a name for himself under similar auspices. As Tribune, he would ensure the animosity of the conservative faction of the Senate, and the Metelli, by passing popular laws forbidding the inspection of ballot boxes. In do doing, he directly opposed the powerful elite, who used ballot inspection as a way to intimidate voters in the citizen assembly elections. Immediately devoid of political support from the social elite, Marius was unsuccessful in several attempts to be elected as an aedile. His persistence, and disregard for his new man status made him several enemies, but he would persevere. In 115 BC, he was elected Praetor, but was bogged down by politically motivated challenges to his election. After a year of service in Rome, Marius was assigned the province of further Spain for his proprietorship. While a seemingly inglorious position, he served well, and his military experience played a significant role. Putting down several small revolts, and amassing a considerable personal fortune in Spanish mineral wealth in the process, Marius returned to Rome as a successful and perhaps more modest new man. Sensing the resistance, he put off any attempts to run for the next stage of Roman offices, the Consulship. Perhaps his decision not to run for Consul, his amassing of personal wealth or other factors cooled the animosity between him and the optimate powers. In 110 BC, in taking advantage of the calmer political environment, Marius would make an arrangement that would send shock waves through his own life and Rome itself. The Caesar branch of the Julii family, as impeccably Roman and patrician as they could come, had completely fallen from political prominence and at this point, didn't have the personal wealth to change matters. Likely heavily influenced by Marius' money, as he was socially considered an uneducated, ill-mannered barbarian, a marriage was arranged between Julia Caesar and Gaius. Marius gained the benefit of entry into social and political circles that he would never have had, and the Julii were immediately re-established as a power player through the financing of political campaigns by Marius. As a result of this marriage and his apparant relaxed political motivations, the breach that existed between Marius and the Metelli was soon also healed. By 109 BC, the consul Quintus Caecilius Metellus Numidicus, would select Marius as a chief subordinate for his campaign against Jugurtha of Numidia. Rise of Marius With his new found good fortune, coming in the form of marriage to Julia Caesar, and his apparent reconciliation with the Metelli family, Marius was in a position to make political strides. At this time, the War with Jugurtha had been carrying on for nearly 4 years in Numidia. With no settlement in sight, and charges of corruption and bribery running rampant against the Roman generals in charge of the operation, Quintus Caecilius Metellus was elected Consul in 109 BC. Charged with carrying out the Roman war effort against Jugurtha, Metellus knew Marius was a quality soldier, and appointed him to serve as his chief Legate. Metellus' first two years in Africa were much the same result as his predecessors. Aside from some minor victories by Marius, the Romans did little to really alter the situation. Marius, sensing the political and popular frustration in Rome, had the perfect opportunity to run for Consul on the basis of being able to finish the war. His time spent as Metellus' subordinate was put to good use by ensuring good terms and popularity among the legionaries. He put the word out to those friends he had in Rome that he alone could win the war, and that the people must elect him. Campaigning essentially through others, and in abstentia, Marius went to Metellus to request dismissal from his service so that he could return to Rome for proper campaigning. Marius was abruptly refused and was forced to continue using his client base to run his campaign. Presenting himself as the blunt, honest general with more capability, and without personal motivation, he was presented as the popular alternative to the ineptness and corruption of the aristocratic elite. Eventually, with the stalemate in Numidia continuing, the strategy worked, and in 107 BC Gaius Marius was elected Consul for the first time. Metellus was recalled even though the senate wanted to continue his service in Numidia as Proconsul. Through more political wrangling (some say illegal), Marius managed to be appointed as commander in Africa. Due to a military crisis from Germanic victories in Gaul, Marius was forced to take unprecendented measures and recruit his armies from the Roman landless masses. Even so, within two years, Marius completed what he said he would, conquering Numidia and putting an end to the war. Though, there was military success in the field, it was through the service of a young patrician officer, Lucius Cornelius Sulla that the war finally came to a close. Jugurtha himself was betrayed by his ally Bocchus, the King of Mauretania, into the arms of the Romans. Sulla organized the capture, but Marius, having Imperium as Consul, would receive the credit, while Sulla maintained the war only ended through his achievement. The incident was the beginning of a terrible rivalry between the two men that would have monumental repercussions in later years. For the time being, however, Marius was at the beginning of his hold on Roman political power. Germanic invasions into northern Italy would propel Marius to new heights and his reform of the armies would have an impact on the Roman social structure, previously unmatched. Even the attempted reforms of the Gracchi brothers would pale in comparison to what Marius did. and he begin as plebian.
  15. roman wargamer

    Sander van Dorst.

    your reply will not stand a good scrutiny, to much flowery word will not make you right.
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