roman wargamer

forum senate / curiata the plebian was enrolled in the senate centuriata tributa 241 bc the final 2 tribe was added, making a total of 35. Thereafter new citizens were enrolled in the existing tribe, so that these lost their geographical significance. also during this period the comitia suffered a radical reform. {Ibid] the comitia tributa now have 35 blocks of tribe X10 =350 + 18 equites.

the plebian was enrolled in the senate byTarquin the First to weaken the patrician influence, he is said to have increased the senate to 300. [ibid] early republic when the 17 tribes was organized later after the foundation of the republic, the concilium plebis was reorganized on the same basis of these, sometime later a comitia tributa of the whole people was organized on the same basis. [ibid]

i am just pointing out where a name assembly do originally begun. so novice could track... and made some comparative study of each books or author presentation.

the plebian was enrolled in the senate byTarquin the First to weaken the patrician influence, he is said to have increased the senate to 300. [ibid]

i will take your friendly advise... hands off and keep only on information and references. on the story of...the assembly? curiata? centuriata? tributa? in the beginning... was the Forum. i think no needs to back it up. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rome emerged into history with an elected king, a senate of 100 elders [patres] which was advisory, ...and by a popular assembly of the clans [curiae], the comitia curiata conferred on to the new king his imperium and have a slight legislative power. A Handbook of Universal History, William H. Tillinghast

When are you talking about? The shadowy regal period? Certainly by the second century, the comitia centuriata was not a legislative body. Laws and treaties were decided by the tribal assemblies, not by the antiquated comitia centuriata. my period was early republic... and the comitia centuriata. can you kindly point to me any known local tribal assembly? any namesake? and point to me how a proposal law become a lex? or legally binding to all Roman? i do not know how a local tribe can imposed their law to all the tribe of Rome. any Forum.

is your stand "as a result of having been granted citizenship under the Constitutio Antoniniana" is enough as citizen to become prefecti? how about the Roman cursus honorum tradition? that dictate the nobiles young sons upward mobility in military and political ladder. to be a 500 men cavalry officer as prefecti, you must be a noble patres or plebes. where did your citizen get his nobiles?, to become prefecti. roman wargamer, I was addressing your assertion that the Syrian soldier in question had been "adopted into a noble family." I gave you evidence, based on the soldier's name, that this was most likely not the case. I repeat, Roman adoption did not work the way you imagine. Apparently, quite a few things about the ancient Romans did not quite work the way you imagine. Try to have a cool day, -- Nephele i also hope you have a good night sleep, so you could also have a fresh next day. it is not my assertion, my answer was a possible way, to repeat a theory reply. are you really certain with your answer is not an opinionated and shall class it as facts. by the way, how is Caldrail, please give my regards. tell him cheer up. "wars begin where you will but they do not end where you please." Machiavelli

the power of patrician censor census- the listing of Roman citizen for tax and military service purposes regimen morum- investigating the morals of the members of the class citizen recognitio- the power to grants new upward class status to men of virtue A Handbook of Universal History, William H. Tillinghast The power to grant new upward class status? But was that an exclusive right? In any case, the censor is only formalising an existing situation. If a man reaches the necessary qualification to be admitted to the senate, then the cenors role makkes sense, as he's confirming this mans achievement and making it clear to the senate that he has become a member of their select club. The only reason this power existed was because the numbers in the senate were limited, in order to maintain status and privilege. I think you'll find the censors power to elevate a man were done as a confirmation, not as an executive decision, and that he would not concern himself with lesser ranks overly. In any case, there were plenty of romans pretending to be something they weren't. Slaves pretended to be free men, free men pretended to be slaves. Certainly if caught these people were hauled in front of a magistrate, but did the censor worry about that? He was there as a senate membership auditor. Further, he had no jurisdiction of the roman military as far as I can see, and military service was one way to advance your status. A man promoted from the ranks to centurion was already operating in a role considered worthy of equites. The censor had no involvement in that. you are talking out of knowledge!! the censor take responsibility only on the class citizen, who are qualified for military service. for your information: the confirmation as you say to appoint or become a senator was called lectio senatus, Caldrail, not the recognitio., that i mention that grant new upward class status to men of virtue lectio senatus-the power to enroll new senator An Encyclopaedia of World History William L. Langer, Harvard University further; recognitio equites- the power to grant equites class status to centuriones of virtue An Encyclopaedia of World History William L. Langer, Harvard University i hope it will help you to become better informed in the future.

is your stand "as a result of having been granted citizenship under the Constitutio Antoniniana" is enough as citizen to become prefecti? how about the Roman cursus honorum tradition? that dictate the nobiles young sons upward mobility in military and political ladder. to be a 500 men cavalry officer as prefecti, you must be a noble patres or plebes. where did your citizen get his nobiles?, to become prefecti.

the power of patrician censor census- the listing of Roman citizen for tax and military service purposes regimen morum- investigating the morals of the members of the class citizen recognitio- the power to grants new upward class status to men of virtue A Handbook of Universal History, William H. Tillinghast

being adopted by the nobiles Roman family, as heir will suffice to inherit legally all the privelege of his adoptor. is one of the lex or legal way, to climb the Roman cursus honorum in your lifetime. It is highly unlikely that the Syrian in question had been adopted into a noble Roman family. Roman adoptions didn't quite work that way. Plus, if the tombstone quoted by Northern Neil dates from the 3rd century onwards, the name of the Syrian in question -- "M. Aurelius Alexander" -- indicates that, far from having been "adopted" into a noble Roman family, he (or an earlier family member) received that Roman name as a result of having been granted citizenship under the Constitutio Antoniniana, when freeborn subjects throughout the Roman empire adopted the nomen gentilicium of "Aurelius" out of gratitude to the emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus. -- Nephele hello Nephele of course, all answer to that kind of question shall be doubtful, even the best theory answer. but adoption by plebian is the best place to begin as prefecti.

being adopted by the nobiles Roman family, as heir will suffice to inherit legally all the privelege of his adoptor. is one of the lex or legal way, to climb the Roman cursus honorum in your lifetime.

There wasn't any membership...and any eligible citizen can pop down to Campus Martius and add their vote to the total. Servius Tullius chief contribution to the Roman history was the substitution for the hereditary clans a new military division into classes and the centuries, was base on wealth and arms. Upon this arrangement depended a new assembly, the comitia centuriata the voting was taken over from comitia curiata. A Handbook of Universal History, William H. Tillinghast at this period, Rome have only 4 tribe confederation. see references below; The Roman Army, 500-350BC by Gaius Octavius Notes from: "Hannibal" (The Roman Army), The Early Army of Rome 500-350BC; Theodore Ayrault Dodge. Earliest: Three Tribes each required to produce 1,000 foot and 100 horse. Foot divided into 10 centuries of 100 men. Horse divided into 10 decuries of 10 men. (After first mounted mob and second Dorian Phalanx.) King or leader had a personal guard of 300 mounted men called celeres. They were paid and kept constantly at the ready. Each 1,000 foot were commanded by a tribune (~colonel). Each century by a centurion (~captain). Servius Tullius: 168 centuries of foot divided into 4 legions of 4,200 foot (42 centuries); 2 legions of juniores, aged 17-45. 2 legions of seniores, aged 46-60. A cavalry arm 2,400 strong. There also were centuries of pioneers and musicians.

There wasn't any membership. It was a voting assembly. The presiding officer calls for a vote, and any eligible citizen can pop down to Campus Martius and add their vote to the total. Thats roman democracy. The only limitation was that it wasn't a free vote. You had to add your vote to a senior romans. Secondly, changes in social status are circumstantial and have absolutely nothing to do with the 'Senate Censor'. Adrian Goldsworthy in The Complete Roman Army mentions that social mobility was always possible. fallacy in the concept of probability. and reason of possibility, will not conform to the tradition and law of ancient Rome. Marius did it, but did it with the help of Julii Patres influence. Gaius Marius was the son of a small plebeian farmer near Arpinum. Contrary to popular belief, the Marius clan was influential locally, and maintained some limited client relationships with those in Rome. Of equestrian, but outside roots, Marius would find his early attempts to climb the Roman social and political ladder difficult at best. Using the Legion as his route to fame, fortune and power, he would become among the most influential men of his day, and the history of Rome. Ancient sources suggest that Marius was pre-destined, through the visions of a seer, to be Consul of Rome 7 times. Not only would this prove true, but he would eventually be hailed as the third founder of Rome, and its savior. Military glory and personal ambition drove Marius straight to the top of the Roman system, but perhaps even more importantly, the man and his legacy would have a profound impact on the life of his nephew, Gaius Julius Caesar. As a youth Marius may have used his modest family influence to join the legions as a junior officer, or may have risen from the ranks. It is difficult to determine exactly, but it is known that he spent his early career in Hispania under Scipio Aemilianus, grandson of Scipio Africanus. Performing his duties admirably he quickly was promoted. By 123 BC, at the age of 34, the veteran officer was elected as quaestor and his political career was off the ground. As a novus homo, or new man, Marius found the rise in the Roman cursus honorum a daunting challenge. It is certain that he used his old family client contacts and his military relations as a source of support. Among these contacts were the powerful Metelli family, and their early support was to prove to be a disaster for them. Just a few short years after his service as Quaestor, Marius was elected Tribune of the Plebes in 119 BC. In this position so soon after the political turmoil and murder of the Gracchi brothers (Gaius murdered 123 BC), Marius chose to follow the populares path make a name for himself under similar auspices. As Tribune, he would ensure the animosity of the conservative faction of the Senate, and the Metelli, by passing popular laws forbidding the inspection of ballot boxes. In do doing, he directly opposed the powerful elite, who used ballot inspection as a way to intimidate voters in the citizen assembly elections. Immediately devoid of political support from the social elite, Marius was unsuccessful in several attempts to be elected as an aedile. His persistence, and disregard for his new man status made him several enemies, but he would persevere. In 115 BC, he was elected Praetor, but was bogged down by politically motivated challenges to his election. After a year of service in Rome, Marius was assigned the province of further Spain for his proprietorship. While a seemingly inglorious position, he served well, and his military experience played a significant role. Putting down several small revolts, and amassing a considerable personal fortune in Spanish mineral wealth in the process, Marius returned to Rome as a successful and perhaps more modest new man. Sensing the resistance, he put off any attempts to run for the next stage of Roman offices, the Consulship. Perhaps his decision not to run for Consul, his amassing of personal wealth or other factors cooled the animosity between him and the optimate powers. In 110 BC, in taking advantage of the calmer political environment, Marius would make an arrangement that would send shock waves through his own life and Rome itself. The Caesar branch of the Julii family, as impeccably Roman and patrician as they could come, had completely fallen from political prominence and at this point, didn't have the personal wealth to change matters. Likely heavily influenced by Marius' money, as he was socially considered an uneducated, ill-mannered barbarian, a marriage was arranged between Julia Caesar and Gaius. Marius gained the benefit of entry into social and political circles that he would never have had, and the Julii were immediately re-established as a power player through the financing of political campaigns by Marius. As a result of this marriage and his apparant relaxed political motivations, the breach that existed between Marius and the Metelli was soon also healed. By 109 BC, the consul Quintus Caecilius Metellus Numidicus, would select Marius as a chief subordinate for his campaign against Jugurtha of Numidia. Rise of Marius With his new found good fortune, coming in the form of marriage to Julia Caesar, and his apparent reconciliation with the Metelli family, Marius was in a position to make political strides. At this time, the War with Jugurtha had been carrying on for nearly 4 years in Numidia. With no settlement in sight, and charges of corruption and bribery running rampant against the Roman generals in charge of the operation, Quintus Caecilius Metellus was elected Consul in 109 BC. Charged with carrying out the Roman war effort against Jugurtha, Metellus knew Marius was a quality soldier, and appointed him to serve as his chief Legate. Metellus' first two years in Africa were much the same result as his predecessors. Aside from some minor victories by Marius, the Romans did little to really alter the situation. Marius, sensing the political and popular frustration in Rome, had the perfect opportunity to run for Consul on the basis of being able to finish the war. His time spent as Metellus' subordinate was put to good use by ensuring good terms and popularity among the legionaries. He put the word out to those friends he had in Rome that he alone could win the war, and that the people must elect him. Campaigning essentially through others, and in abstentia, Marius went to Metellus to request dismissal from his service so that he could return to Rome for proper campaigning. Marius was abruptly refused and was forced to continue using his client base to run his campaign. Presenting himself as the blunt, honest general with more capability, and without personal motivation, he was presented as the popular alternative to the ineptness and corruption of the aristocratic elite. Eventually, with the stalemate in Numidia continuing, the strategy worked, and in 107 BC Gaius Marius was elected Consul for the first time. Metellus was recalled even though the senate wanted to continue his service in Numidia as Proconsul. Through more political wrangling (some say illegal), Marius managed to be appointed as commander in Africa. Due to a military crisis from Germanic victories in Gaul, Marius was forced to take unprecendented measures and recruit his armies from the Roman landless masses. Even so, within two years, Marius completed what he said he would, conquering Numidia and putting an end to the war. Though, there was military success in the field, it was through the service of a young patrician officer, Lucius Cornelius Sulla that the war finally came to a close. Jugurtha himself was betrayed by his ally Bocchus, the King of Mauretania, into the arms of the Romans. Sulla organized the capture, but Marius, having Imperium as Consul, would receive the credit, while Sulla maintained the war only ended through his achievement. The incident was the beginning of a terrible rivalry between the two men that would have monumental repercussions in later years. For the time being, however, Marius was at the beginning of his hold on Roman political power. Germanic invasions into northern Italy would propel Marius to new heights and his reform of the armies would have an impact on the Roman social structure, previously unmatched. Even the attempted reforms of the Gracchi brothers would pale in comparison to what Marius did. and he begin as plebian.

your reply will not stand a good scrutiny, to much flowery word will not make you right.

none citizen can never served in the legiones, that is the triarii, princeps, hastatus, much more as an officer. fallacy in the concept of possibility, will not conform to the tradition and law of ancient Rome.

firstly, changes of social status, to the membership in the centuriata and upward status, needs to be confirmed by the senate censor, that is the lex or law. you can not just claim it. Rome was a federation of tribe, so comitia centuriata is the federal representation of the people in the confederation government of Rome. and a very few select men and a few number of people only can vote... that is Rome ancient democracy. not the same with your democracy. you must tell the name of assembly you are mentioning, so we can study it's purpose.

Rome have a very define social status for men that will dictate his position in the legion. a centurion is an officer that could command a centuriae. to be a centurio, you must be a member [or your ancestor family line] of the comitia centuriata, a voting member. which is really is... a member or not a member. comitia centuriata is the comitia that elect the counsul for the grant of military imperium. and not all citizen can vote... only members of the comitia centuriata. it is were the pool of officers for the centuriae are commission. when members of the comitia was commission as officers, they become centurions of the centuriae. not all citizen can vote, Caldrail. how can a counsul take notice of a person who has no bearing on his election. the legiones, are recruited initially from land owning farmers, who are financially capable, and in later times even from urban assidui or propertied citizens, who can arned themselves. and futher,local assemblies has no lex power compared to comitia centuriata.

yes, i concede, you are better read than me. i do not possess the book you read. that is why i am asking you, how could a centuriones can become prefecti. that is a very simple question. you always beat on your expertise. and you are the one who claim you are better than me, and not me around. as you said you have a "broader range of history than "me.

But in case you think I'm making it up, you just presented a wrong idea! a centuriones becoming a prefecti what more of a castrorum, one of the highest position for a prefectus. a centuriones will become a centurio in the legio. if you begin your carrer as hastatus centurio posterior... even if you are promoted every year a one rank higher...it will take you a lifetime to become a primuspilus. to be a centurio, you must be a member [or your ancestor family line] of the comitia centuriata, a voting member and not just an assidui or propertied citizens. if you can make an " illustrious career, as you say" you could become a honorary member of the Romani equites or the first of the citizen of Rome. that appointment alone to become equites will need the approval of senate censor. and all you said...But in case you think I'm making it up...look for it yourselves. i just presented my argument.

thanks for Caldrail, he now knows what it mean even partially, a year ago, he do not even heared or read of it. Neither had you before you read that Vegetius website. Don't be so cheeky. You hadn't defined the ferentarii either. Sorry mate, I beat you to it u lol... it simply mean a light armed infantry away from the main body of the legion. when i mention it. you uncunningly accused me of inventing the word ferentarius. i won't forget that day, when somebody corrected you, on it's meaning. you blush!

How the Roman Legion March "the advance guard tumulturia, a group of cavalry as scout will retreat at the rear of the light infantry, and oversee the situation, composes of archer, slinger, ferentarii, and the alae, under prefecti alae command. then engage the enemy but a cavalry runners will inform the legionary cohors and main body at their rear."rw qoute 1.He ordered those auxiliaries which were lightly armed, and the archers, to march first, that they might prevent any sudden insults from the enemy, and might search out the woods that looked suspiciously, and were capable of ambuscades. 2.Next to these followed that part of the Romans which was completely armed, both footmen ,and horsemen. quoted from The Wars Of The Jews Book III CHAPTER 6. 2. But as Vespasian had a great mind to fall upon Galilee, he marched out of Ptolemais, having put his army into that order wherein the Romans used to march. He ordered those auxiliaries which were lightly armed, and the archers, to march first, that they might prevent any sudden insults from the enemy, and might search out the woods that looked suspiciously, and were capable of ambuscades. Next to these followed that part of the Romans which was completely armed, both footmen ,and horsemen. Next to these followed ten out of every hundred, carrying along with them their arms, and what was necessary to measure out a camp withal; and after them, such as were to make the road even and straight, and if it were any where rough and hard to be passed over, to plane it, and to cut down the woods that hindered their march, that the army might not be in distress, or tired with their march. Behind these he set such carriages of the army as belonged both to himself and to the other commanders, with a considerable number of their horsemen for their security. After these he marched himself, having with him a select body of footmen, and horsemen, and pikemen. After these came the peculiar cavalry of his own legion, for there were a hundred and twenty horsemen that peculiarly belonged to every legion. Next to these came the mules that carried the engines for sieges, and the other warlike machines of that nature. After these came the commanders of the cohorts and tribunes, having about them soldiers chosen out of the rest. Then came the ensigns encompassing the eagle, which is at the head of every Roman legion, the king, and the strongest of all birds, which seems to them a signal of dominion, and an omen that they shall conquer all against whom they march; these sacred ensigns are followed by the trumpeters. Then came the main army in their squadrons and battalions, with six men in depth, which were followed at last by a centurion, who, according to custom, observed the rest. As for the servants of every legion, they all followed the footmen, and led the baggage of the soldiers, which was borne by the mules and other beasts of burden. But behind all the legions carne the whole multitude of the mercenaries; and those that brought up the rear came last of all for the security of the whole army, being both footmen, and those in their armor also, with a great number of horsemen.

thanks for Caldrail, he now knows what it mean even partially, a year ago, he do not even heared or read of it.

Note that a centurion at the end of an illustrious career might be given the role of Praefectus Castrorum NN say's Cohort centurions had a responsibility more on a par with majors or colonels. Caldral said, No, they had responsibilities more on par with a tribal chief. i like to point out that it is a fact that tribe have only one chief to command their men. and Rome have only 35 tribe in late republic, a one legio have more than 10 prefecti that command the whole legio. in question of officer that is commission? about the centurio.? "Note that a centurion at the end of an illustrious career might be given the role of Praefectus Castrorum" where do you get that information to support your statement, which reference or books? for me it is wrong. to be a prefecti you must be a plebian or a young patrician. to me: my stand is like this; to be a centurio, you must be a member [or your ancestor family line] of the comitia centuriata, a voting member and not just an assidui or propertied citizens. if you can make an " illustrious career, as you say" you could become a honorary member of the Romani equites or the first of the citizen of Rome. that appointment alone to become equites will need the approval of senate censor. if you can point me wrong, i will offer my apology.

when a legion was ambushed; all the men of war stop, and will immediately form battle formation. the advance guard tumulturia, a group of cavalry as scout will retreat at the rear of the light infantry, and oversee the situation, composes of archer, slinger, ferentarii, and the alae, under prefecti alae command. then engage the enemy but a cavalry runners will inform the legionary cohors and main body at their rear. the first 3 cohors will form a battleline formation, just a few hundreds meters from the advance guard, each cohors are under the command of prefectus cohortis 9 on the left flank, 7 at the center, and 8 at the right flank. if the advanve guard are overhelm, they will retreat and fall back behind the first battleline acies of the legio. and the 1st battleline will hold the enemy forces until the main legion body arrive to help. the second battleline acies of the legio will form behind the first battleline. composes of 3 on the left flank, under command of Praefectus Castrorum,3 will keep a defensive stand, 1 at the center, under command of Legatus Legionis and 2 at the right flank. under command of Tribunus Laticlavius, while 2 can act as 1st counter offensive force. while the main cavalry reserved behind 2nd battle will wait for the legatus tactical order. if the ambush is sustained and repel by the advance guard; the 8th cohors will make an initial counter attacked on the right flank side, closely followed by the 2nd cohors as reserved counter offensive forces, while a cavalry alae will sustained a longer pursuit to harass the rear of the enemy. the third battleline acies of the legio will form behind the second battleline. who acted as the rear reserved of the main legion force each cohors are under the command of prefectus cohortis 6 on the left flank, 4 at the center, and 5 at the right flank. the baggage train was position here, behind 3rd battleline. the last 10th cohors will act as the legion rear guard. nothing much, they will use the tactical formation and strategic counter measure, if possible yes, in my belief.