cinzia8
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Posts posted by cinzia8
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Stirrups didn't reach europe until the 6th century. Bear in mind that the Romans were never great cavalrymen and that their traditional four-pronged saddle supported the rider adequately. Even if Aetius encountered primitve rope stirrups, it's unlikely he saw any real advantage to them. The ability of the huns as riders was a matter of skill rather than equipment.
Regarding the fabricae, the addition of carbon to iron in the manufacturing process was incidential - though it's possible the more observant metal workers realised there was a connection between the two materials in making steel weapons. No evidence? The Romans pointed at spanish swords in the accounts of the Hannabalic Wars and tell us that the test of a superior sword was to lay it on the head and pull the extremities down onto the shoulders and then have it spring back into shape. That's the behaviour of 'spring steel' rather than ductile milder steels, and iron might well simply snap if so used.
Good point about the stirrups. After what I read about Aetius and the Huns, it was just a question that came to my mind. Why not imitate a method that made mounting easier? I was tremendously assured on the forum that they were not used until much later.<g>
I guess you have me convinced that steel swords were being used, maybe not in uniformity but they existed and were not uncommon. What a subject, but it fascinates me!
Cinzia
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I'm concerned mostly with the 5th century. If by then Fabricae where producing arms, I imagine there would be some "blueprint" or "formula" for buying (they would have to know what and how much), housing and producing materials. Romans were ordered, so wouldn't they think in terms like what do I need to produce 100 spatha a month, or year to be ready for the next campaign? So, there might be evidence that they were acquiring carbon and iron to use, or at least iron.
Also, it seems possible that soldiers also bought from smaller smiths like I might buy a bracelet from a local artisan or distinctive jeweler to get that specialty piece and here is where they might have possibly been able to get "steel" swords, possibly coveted and at a higher price. It just seems odd that there seems to be no clear reference to something as superior as a steel sword or real evidence.
This topic reminds me of the time I asked on another forum wasn't it odd that Aetius who spent his formative boyhood years with the Huns never thought to introduce the stirrup to the Roman army, especially when the Huns carried the reputation for being superior riders. <g> That was a storm unleashed!
Cinzia
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The good professor focuses on steel production and ignores the examples of steel produced crudely and individually from as early as 4000 years ago in Turkey. The Romans themselves referred to steel, and I notice they describe the qualities of the best spanish swords whose tradition of steel manufacture goes back to at least the 4th century BC.
I think my confusion stems from the fact that to outfit legions (someone mentioned that soldiers could buy their swords from the government cheaper than privately) there had to be some sort of mass production. Wouldn't raw materials like charcoal and iron have to be stockpiled? Does anyone know of any ancient historians writing about swords with a clear reference that indicates that general knowledge thought in terms of "steel" or a metal superior to iron? Is there a Latin term for steel?
Thank you all for your insights. It's a lively and interesting discussion.
Cinzia
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In regards to whether swords like the Spatha and Gladius can be considered steel, I found this paper that would definitely indicate that these swords were definitely made of iron, with very little to no properties that would be considered steel. I think these swords should be referred to as metal or iron swords and any reference to steel is inaccurate.
http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/h-carnegie-steel.htm
A Brief History of Iron and Steel Production
by
Professor Joseph S. Spoerl
Saint Anselm College
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Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and viewpoints. This is immensely helpful. If only I could hold a spatha and have a tactile understanding of this, but I had the same wish when I was researching the Hun composite bow! <g> At least I wont be afraid to use the word steel and I know my Frank shields are truly wooden and so "Thud" it is. No clangs for me, unless it's sword against sword or axe.
Cinzia
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I'm doing research for weapons used at Chalon (451 CE) by Romans and barbarians. I'm under the impression that barbarian shields were mostly round, wooden, lined in leather or metal (silver or brass) with a metal shield boss. Also, I believe the Scutum were also wooden. I'm also a bit confused if the swords were steel or iron. Pictures of the swords in this period show some to be rough and jagged not smooth, but I've had a hard time finding references to the manufacture. In GERMANIC WARRIOR AD 236-568 Osprey-- there is a reference to 'pattern welded blades...made by iron twisted together, hammered, cut up, then recombined." Being stereotypically true to my gender, I'm not quite sure what the "recombined" process entails, but I'm asking if a true steel sword existed in the 5th century and in Domitian's time first century.
I've been reading a historical novel set in 81 CE under Domitian and the Roman soldiers have steel swords and shields that resonate a clang upon impact. I realize it's fiction but I pay attention to these details.
Are there any weapons experts available to comment?
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Please include me in the prize drawing.
Cinzia
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The Light Bearer by Donna Gillespie - its up there with Eagle in the Snow
The Light Bearer is an awesome book. The detail is amazing and the plot keeps you going despite the length.
I read Steven Saylor, he is a gifted storyteller and I'm a fan of Quo Vadis. Pillars of the Earth by Caldwell also excellent despite its age.
Has anyone read Island of Ghosts, something like this? I've been meaning to look for it. I heard this was good and deals with Sarmatians in Roman times.
I've read Under the Eagle by Scarrow and liked it. I also read the Secundus Papyrus by Noyer, which is 5th century and closer to my heart and really enjoyed the mystery and the husband-wife team physicians as ancient detectives.
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I will check this out. I have Germanic Warrior AD 236-568, so it's time to get Late Roman Empire Cavalrymen. Did you see the movie King Arthur with Clive Owens? I think this was 5th century and they screwed up in that the horses had stirrups, but I wonder if the Roman soldiers were outfitted accurately. I'm writing a story that takes place at Catalaunum (Chalons) in Gaul.
That depends. If the 'knights' were sarmatian cavalry in Britain then it might not be quite right, but at least preserves the correct feel. Certainly the helmets were wrong since they were old fashioned attic-style jobs which had gone out of use centuries before and even then reserved for ceremonial use. If the theory about sarmatians is wrong (and I believe it is, since foreign horsemen are not mentioned in the sources of the period and this theory seems to be merely an attempt to reconcile history with medieval fiction) then no, the image is hopel;essly wrong.
The only possible guides to the corrct appearance of dark age Romano-British cavalry are archaeology and contemporary literature. I included a possible description of the Romano-British army at the battle of Mons Badonicus gathered from welsh poetry of four or five hundred years afterward, but there's little to guide us apart from that tradition.
Thanks. My Romans are in Gaul going against the Huns in 450CE. I've a character who is an equite. It was hard to find a Roman cavalry group name for that specific time period, so I made one up. When I describe the tribunes, I would like to paint an accurate physical description. However, the public does seem to have a fixed notion on what a Roman soldier looks like. So, maybe a plume here or there won't hurt. :-)
I did order the book you suggested, so I'll see what that has to offer. I'm a bit safe in that my story is fiction and an author can also add a "historical note." I must say that I prefer accuracy, but from what I've encountered in my writers group is that the tendency to think that Rome never changed past Caesar is strong.
Cinzia
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Osprey do a book on late empire cavalrymen that might help you
[url="http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Late-Roman-Cavalryman-AD-236
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I'm looking for some resources (on line or book that is 5th century specific) that would give me an idea of the type of armor a 5th century tribune in the cavalry would wear. For example would a helmet still have the red plume at the top? Is it referred to technically as a plume. I believe a centurion's would not, but what about a commanding officer?
Cinzia
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I'm a fan of the Frank "Long-hairs" they built the Merovingian empire that created France. They were tough, ruthless and unrelenting.
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Hello all:
Does anyone know how keeping a journal was viewed in 450 CE, or if this was something even done, but maybe expressed differently? Would a Roman in this time expressed aspects of daily life in a "Codex" or just on papyrus or parchment?
Cinzia
My first response is that writing in ancient times, even letters, was always intended for an audience of more than a few people. The only writing I can think of that approaches journal writing with references to private topics: moods, culpability, remorse, self-questioning, trivia of daily life, is the Confessions of St. Augustine, on the eve of the medieval period. I'm sure others will have sources for you.
"Dear Diary,
It's nine o'clock, the children are fast asleep, and I'm going over these latest accounts from Trajan's Market before I hit the sack." Ancient people didn't conceive of their world or of themselves in this way.
True, plus in ancient times the writing materials were expensive so it isn't likely to be wasted on writing a diary.
Thanks for the insight. I never thought about the ready supply of writing materials, nor the expense. I do know a Roman detective who agrees with you. He shared the same thoughts with me this week. I might have to rely on the "fiction" aspect of my story. However, my heroine is wealthy.
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Since I've been doing these Hidden Roman Names here for some time, I figured it's time to update this posting, and provide a new scrambling tool.
What I do here is find your "hidden" Roman name in your own name through the art of anagram or blanagram. A blanagram is like an anagram, except that one letter has been exchanged for another.
In my Hidden Roman Names blanagrams, I may exchange more than one letter, because a masculine ancient Roman name will generally require the letters "i", "u", and "s". A feminine ancient Roman name will generally require the letters "i" and "a".
All you need to do is provide me with a scramble of the letters of your first and last names (and let me know whether you are male or female). I ask you to scramble your name for privacy. Here is a scrambling tool if you need help:
Scramble Me! (don't leave spaces between your first, middle, and last names as your type them out)
Your resulting Roman name will be uniquely your own, as it will be created from the rearranged letters of your existing name. You may even receive your ancient Roman "family history", to go with your new name.
-- Nephele
cimtilheiaylnner is my legal name scrambled and I'm a female. I'm curious because I'm writing a historical set in the 5th century and I can always use good names. Also, I'm open to any Goth, Frank and Visigoth names. Dark Lord might be a bit unbelievable, but I might be able to squeak by with Darcamir or Luthdarc, Darcaveche. <g>
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Hello all:
Does anyone know how keeping a journal was viewed in 450 CE, or if this was something even done, but maybe expressed differently? Would a Roman in this time expressed aspects of daily life in a "Codex" or just on papyrus or parchment?
Cinzia
My first response is that writing in ancient times, even letters, was always intended for an audience of more than a few people. The only writing I can think of that approaches journal writing with references to private topics: moods, culpability, remorse, self-questioning, trivia of daily life, is the Confessions of St. Augustine, on the eve of the medieval period. I'm sure others will have sources for you.
"Dear Diary,
It's nine o'clock, the children are fast asleep, and I'm going over these latest accounts from Trajan's Market before I hit the sack." Ancient people didn't conceive of their world or of themselves in this way.
I have a character who wants to journal, but I strive for time period authenticity. I think that the desire to reflect in the written word must have always existed. Perhaps it was done in a way unfamiliar to the modern eye, or just never has been discovered, which won't help my research. I imagine my heroine could write letters to someone close to her, like a confessor friend. I also wonder if she was to write letters to herself or a close friend, would it best be done on pieces of papyrus, parchment or in a codex? Any thoughts??
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Hello all:
Does anyone know how keeping a journal was viewed in 450 CE, or if this was something even done, but maybe expressed differently? Would a Roman in this time expressed aspects of daily life in a "Codex" or just on papyrus or parchment?
Cinzia
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I just joined here and on Facebook-Late Antiquity. Can research questions be asked on the Facebook page?
Sure, if there's a lot of people in that Facebook group.
I think you said there are 79 people. Sounds like a village, but it's a start. There's bound to be some "elders" among them.
I want to know how keeping a journal was viewed in 450 CE, or if this was something even done, but maybe expressed differently. Would a Roman in this time express aspects of daily life in a "Codex" or just on papyrus or parchment?
Also, I've noticed that I'm a servi and a Tiro. Are these terms related to slavery? In Saylor's book ROMAN BLOOD, he has a slave who is Cicero's legal assistant named Tiro.
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As Facebook wasn't exactly meant for prolonged, meaningful dialogue among strangers, I wouldn't hold your breath.
So far, we're up to 79 members. But hopefully we'll get more. Gotta popularize Late Roman History!
I just joined here and on Facebook-Late Antiquity. Can research questions be asked on the Facebook page?
Spectacle in the Roman World
in Trajan's Market
Posted
Please include me as well. May Fortuna bless me with luck! <g>