Virgil61
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Posts posted by Virgil61
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The Aristocrats was great--great premise (different comics tell same joke), great subject (the Forbidden joke), great backstory (Gilbert Gottfried right after 9/11), and great jokes.
The Sarah Silverman and Mime versions were hilarious. GG's rendition at the friar's club almost had me on the floor, too bad the editing kept cutting back to analytical descriptions of the joke, in the middle of it being told. I went with a Russian friend who's been here about seven years. Sometimes comedy doesn't travel well but he thinks it was pure genius.
Highly recommended.
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...The Roman army I believe had a physical AND MENTAL advantage over its opponents due to training and discipline...
Gauls were large and very strong. They marched over long distances and endured hardship as did Roman soldiers. The descriptions of them would lead me to believe individually they were actually physically superior specimens over the Romans. I could be wrong, but that's just my perception based off what I've read about them and Romans. I believe training and discipline was the difference that made the Roman Army superior to other armies. I'd say the same discipline went into everything they did: navy, development, commerce and agriculture. Whatever endeavor Rome (as a nation) undertook, they did it as well or better than anyone.
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The Roman Military System was superior to any other military system rather than the actual Roman was superior to any other race.
Training and discipline, spoken like a soldier. Nothing gives confidence more than to be able to conduct your tactical-skill at the small unit or individual level so it's almost second nature and to have the confidence that peers on the left and right can do the same.
I do remember a scene somewhere against the Germans--was it Bello Gallico?--where some of the Roman troops were visibly taken aback by their size at first sight but settled down when reminded of their own deeds and training.
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Funny--plebs who oppose the populares are simply "patsies" of the patrician class and patricians who oppose both plebs and Italian rights are somehow populares. I'm wondering, Is there any historical evidence at all that would convince you that the divisons of 133 BCE don't apply to the divisions of 50 BCE? It seems you've managed to guard your theory against any falsification whatever.
C'mon, you're doubtful that patsies or bribes were used by the patricians? Running tribunes for office who were in cahoots with the Senate was something done to T. Gracchus as well as others.
By 50 BC events had degenerated so far they barely looked like the decade prior, but make no mistake they were built on the fault lines of the previous eras and the line-ups, JC vs Cato and Co., seem to reflect that.
The historical evidence convinces me otherwise.
Sure, and your claim that there was no middle class in Rome flies in the face of hundreds of cross-disciplinary empirical studies of income distribution, which almost invariably follows a power law (or exponential decay function, which is mathematically quite close).You might want to reread my posts. I never claimed there was no middle-class, only skepticism that it constituted all that much of the population.
Using subsistence as a baseline, I'd like to see a study of income distribution of an ancient economy like the late Roman Republic and it's slave-based agrarian foundation show a distribution that'll look anything like what we'd like today . There's one out there on the Byzantine Empire circa 1000...it's not pretty.
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The relationships among magistrates over a period of more than 100 years were obviously more complicated than is captured by attempting to shoehorn everything into the familiar division between patrician and pleb.
Active bribery, putting up patsies and other successful attempts by the patrician class to involve themselves in undermining populares affairs for their benefit can make it look complicated.
The alliances of the late republic particularly demonstrate that the failure is on the part of seeing everything in terms of the patrician/pleb division. The patrician families included Clodius, Caesar, and Catalina--who would thus be 'optimates' in your categorization scheme; the plebian families included Catulus, Metellus Pius, Lucullus, Domitius, and Cato--who thus would be 'populares' in your scheme. Obviously, this makes absolutely no sense because mapping the optimate/populare distinction onto the patrician/pleb divide fails utterly to capture who derived power from the senate (the plebs listed above) and who had power from the tribal assembly (the patricians listed above).Patricians/plebian scheme isn
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I'm a fan of Star Wars, but i haven't actually seen the cartoon versions yet, so i don't know what they're like. I certainly agree that Episode II could have done with a little more action and plot instead of focusing almost entirely on only a few things.
War of the Worlds; absolutely brilliant.
Batman begins; I'm not too much of a fan of Batman, although i have seen the early 60's and 70's "Zap" "Pow" batman series, and Batman Begins was far better then that, which is a good indication
WotWorlds was much better than expected and Batman begins was good enough for a once through. I haven't seen the Star Wars cartoons, but I'll look for them.
Has anyone seen "The Aristocrats"?
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I don't care that your sympathies are with the faction of Caesar; I care that you don't refer to any crass patrician from the time of the Gracchi as an optimate.
Reading a lot of Cicero recently I see.
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1. In every society some people seem more comfortable leading, while others seem more comfortable following. Most people are followers in my experience. They seek not equality and self-rule, but benevolent masters to follow.
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Old thread, new thought.
An interesting point I'd add here based on my experience as an NCO in the Army. Some people are 'natural' leaders, only a few really, but the vast majority of those without 'natural' talent labeled as followers can be trained to acquire leadership attributes and function very competently as leaders. It says a lot about the unfullfilled potential human beings walk around with.
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One of these days, Virgil, I'd like you define "optimate" because you seem to use the term so flexibly it encompasses just about anyone (and at any time during Roman history) who opposes something you support.
See my past posts on the subject, I
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I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on the grain dole given out at Rome through its entire history. During the Republic it was used as a method of gaining popularity with the people for elections, and also equally used as a reason for prosecution of those who used it in the slightest. Later the emperors tightly controlled it, for they knew the consequences of allowing the public to go hungry.
The grain dole centralized quite a lot of people into one city from across Europe. Was it's implementation a mistake? Did Rome need such a population, and should it have controlled the grain more tightly to encourage colonization and productivity in other parts of the empire. If Rome could have maintained half its size and forced the people to move to locations like Gaul and Britannia would the west have stood?
The grain dole was a terrible waste of economic and human capital, but it never constituted a major drag on the Roman budget anywhere equal to the upkeep of the armies, either under the Empire or Republic. If I remember correctly, Egypt, the breadbasket of the Republic and Empire, paid its tax in grain which was used for the dole. It was a nasty legacy of the optimate class.
The dole was an unfortunate aspect of the appropriation of lands, especially in the 2d century AD, when land-owning soldiers were away on several years of campaigning. They'd return essentially landless--those lovers of the Constitutional Republic, the optimates, being the primary extortionists of much of these small farms and adding them to their own large land holdings. Even worse off were the Italian allied soldiers with farms who had even less recourse to any tribunes or justice.
Tiberius Gracchi in a famous speech, gives a vivid portrayal of returning legionnaires pathetically wandering the countryside with their families, homeless because neighboring large-land owners seized their small farms. Add to this the influx of slave labor in place of paid free labor driving wages down and you've got a recipe for disaster for many formerly land-owning citizens who ended up as urban dwellers.
I think the dole averaged around 200,000 to 500,000 dwellers or thereabouts depending on the era. Not enough to make much of a dent in Gaul I'll guess and perhaps more than Britain could handle agriculturally. The Roman answer was a rash of laws to limit slave labor and several plans, under Republic and Empire, to reestablish those on the dole to farms. The laws seemed to never get full implementation.
What probably should have happened was to put a stop to the land expropriations immediately or to force reforms, but the optimate class, the beneficiaries, being as powerful as they were, famously fought against these. Barring that a forceful limitation on slave labor, which optimates wouldn't have put up with either or finally pushing these landless out into colonies within the first generation when agricultural know-how was still intact. Sadly none of these was ever efficiently pushed through, so it was Bread and Circuses for all.
...(To any still suffering from the delusion that an economic short-fix such as free grain will alleviate starvation, I invite you to examine the effects of western aid to Africa, which is provides a test-case for the hypothetical effect of free grain on the alleviation of starvation.)
You may not have meant it this starkly. I've worked a lot with USAID, State and non-governmental agencies in the past on international development issues [except for Somalia, non-African].
No one has heartburn about alleviating starvation in immediately effected areas to keep people from dying in, say the next few weeks. It's the follow-on aid that deals with ag and economic infastructure in the longer term that is where the big bucks go and disappear. And where you mysteriously have a wealthier class of indigenous have's and little to show for the money.
The new method isn't to deny food for starvation, even the most right-wing Bushite wouldn't tote that flag. It's to have USAID or World Bank (or whomever supplies the aid) reps on the ground when the long term aid is being administered and auditing the work as it's being done.
Sorry, off topic I know.
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I finally got around to reading this. Interesting read especially relative to its links to and competition with Christianity, thanks.
Today, Isiac religion is undergoing something of a revival. Among New Age crowds, Isis is a popular symbol among those seeking an alternative to -
I daresay that this movie is based on the book written by Valerio Massimo Manfredi? If so, i hope that the movie does the book justice. I've read the book again and again, and i seriously enjoy the thought that Romulus Augustulus may have ended up of a brighter fate than at best lifelong exile and imprisonment or at worst, death.
I'm usually a bit dismissive of a lot of historical fiction, but this guy looks like the real thing. Manfredi's an archaelogist teaching at a university in Milan (according to Wikipedia).
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Interesting. Quick (off-topic) question--for how long were the inhabitants of the fallen Etruscan civilization referred to as "Etruscans"? I mean, if you were to call a modern-day resident of Perugia an "Etruscan", would she be offended, bemused, or simply non-plussed?
I think the language is thought to have died out by the late 2d century which is an incredibly quick assimilation. Even the Greek language spoken in southern Italy at the time has survived till this day in a couple of small towns. I don't know about Perugia but I lived in Livorno,Tuscany for three years and I'd say they associate themselves with the Etruscans to some extent. They're considered genetically the closest? contemporary peoples related to the original Etruscans.
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Well, the day didn`t turn out to be what i expected, but in any case,
merry christmas to every one!
That's terrible. I hope she makes a speedy recovery and you have a better Christmas day.
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Hello, I was wondering what college offered the best Roman/Greek/Ancient history program. Also, if anyone could tell me what the most revered school of archeology is, it would be greatly appreciated. I am going to be applying to colleges within the next year and the idea of a career in archeology excites me. I would love to study archeology and work at sites in Greece, Italy, or Europe. The Middle East wouldn
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How can corporations afford the rising costs of healthcare and other benefits?
They can't and they can't compete with fractional overseas wages and nonexistent benefits, hence the problems. Here in Michigan, an enormous union state where the auto industry is king (though the king is dying), GM and Ford in particular are being hammered by the longevity of its former employees (and the fact that most American's don't give a hoot about supporting American companies). The current membership of the UAW just voted down an extension of benefits to retirees in order to preserve their own prime benefits and avoid additional out of pocket costs for health premiums. The anger among the old timers, many of whom formed the union and worked to give the current crop the benefits they have only to feel as if they've been stabbed in the back, is understandably at a peak.
A few months back I spent four weeks escorting a 18 doctor delegation of chief physicians and department heads from Siberia to the U.S. The Russian healthcare system is in terrible shape in spite of some excellent doctors. The purpose of this and other groups was to learn the U.S. style of medicine and insurance (which the Russian think might be the answer to low spending on medicine).
It was an eye-opener for me, we met with Fed, State, Insurance and professional organizations. The bottom line I walked away with:
1. The health system is a quasi-government hospital system already; the VA and Medicaid/Medicare (for those over 65) systems are huge and will not go away.
2. Expanding technology has caused a rise in the price of medicine as those who might have died in the last generation are given very expensive treatment to prolong their lives. You'll live an extra ten or twenty or more years now from something you'd have died from a generation or two ago, but the cure is expensive.
3. Something like 30% of all medical costs are because of treatment given in the last two years of a person's life. The bottom line is that immense savings could start with making decisions at the end of a person's life on whether the treatment is worth the cost, emotionally and financially.
4. Medical Malpractice is responsible for a small minutae of health costs.
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Sorry I've been away -- travelling -- and haven't seen this topic till now. I might add something on salt in a while. Meanwhile, I have a problem with Virgil61's cornmeal. To US speakers (I think Virgil may be one) corn means 'Indian corn' or 'maize', and that's what modern Italians make their polenta from and what Americans get their grits from. But Romans didn't, because corn = maize was domesticated in North America.
There is a polenta to be found in Latin texts, but it's a solid porridgy stuff made from barley, not corn. Any references in modern writings to corn in the Roman diet mean 'corn' as the British understand it, i.e. wheat or wheat/barley.
I recently, to my great pleasure, found a 16th century Italian text (Matthioli's commentary on Dioscorides) which tells me, as a piece of hot news, that the people in the Veneto have started making their polenta out of granturco, i.e. 'Turkish grain', i.e. Indian corn = maize. This is in roughly 1570.
Thanks for correcting me, I was wrong and forgot my own American history--Squanto and all that.
You're right, I've been reading Brit translations, Penguin variety and somewhere along the way I'd let that one slip mentally. The polenta the Italians made until the intro to maize was different of course using wheat or oats or probably any cereal. The basic production and consistancy is similar.
Edit: I am pleading hunger. After thinking of polenta I bought a three-cheese polenta packet, made some marinara sauce and Italian sausage.
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I love NC and go down there atleast once a month. My son lives in Wilmington, and am anxious to move there. Trouble is finding a job, the place is one heck of an economic desert!
You think so? The Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill area and Charlotte are full of opportunities. Raleigh is very good for education, sciences and medical fields, not bad in construction,legal and insurance. A very good high-tech base. It is my favorite place in the U.S. hands down, unfortunately because of family ties I'll be moving back to Portland/Seattle.
Charlotte's big on services, especially banking,insurance and legal. It's the largest banking center in the U.S. after NYC, believe it or not. Wilmington was booming in the 90's so I'm surprised it's not easy to find work, depends on your field of course, it's not a quite a city but a growing big town.
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No, i am not questioning DNA tests. But i am questioning the sources of such DNA tests. It wouldnt suprise me if such DNA tests that are done in the name of certain societies, are manipulated. DNA tests as such, if done by a serious source, are ofcourse correct.
Ok, got it. I thought you were doubting DNA research. You're correct that politically in Northern Italy the racial issue is charged with the Legia Norda and all claiming celtic or germanic origin.
@Virgil61I agree with the linguistic part, and understand your point. but i never claimed that Northern Italians are Genetically linked with modern day germans. But Germanic culture and blood can be found in alot of northern italian fields.
P.S: Can you tell me something about the last name MEZZENZANA its a name that only appears in North Italy,(Novara-Milano-Varese provinces) what does this name mean? Something with, Half, right?
The Lombards did exert a small influence on the language but I looked in vain for a study in English on this. Mezza does mean half, mezzagiorno (half-day) is noon, mezzanote (half-night) is midnight, etc., but I don't know the ending for Mezzanzana. It looks like half something on first glance but my Italian isn't up to the level it was years ago.
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Yes, but these DNA tests are sometimes dubios, i dont know what DNA test you are reffering to, but there is that organization in Northern Italy, called UNIVERSITAS STUDIORUM INSUBRIAE, which constantly wants to uphold the claims that North Italians are decendents of the Celtic Insubrians and Boii, that inhabited that region before the Romans came. But there are clear documents that the Romans butchered or deported nearly all of the Boii and Insubrians in that region, and filled it up with the roman veterans(that conquered it) and their families and Sabine(Italic) farmers from central italy. This region became Cisalpine Gaul. There are also reports of DNA testings in Ravenna(italy), the old capitol of the East-Goths, claiming east-gothic strains. I dont buy this celtic and east-gothic claim. it could be that people in Ravenna have East-Gothic blood, but its not significant(even if its true). The Lombards, came with houndreds of thousands of people, and they didnt leave. They fused. There are thousands of documents of mixed italic and Lombard marrigies in the early 8th centuray a.d.. But as i stated, the Lombard blood went up in the Italic blood. But the Last and only decendents of the Lombards are the northern Italians.(while the goths completely dissapeared.)
You misunderstood, not having the DNA strain that proves Germanic connections, as I explained, doesn't mean that there isn't Lombard strains it may indicate marriage patterns not that there were not marriages.
Northern Italians have some Lombard genetics I'm sure, but it's more likely than not that Lombards were certainly outnumbered heavily by the indigenous people. And, to another of your points, the Lombard language that exists in Milano isn't a product of German dialect, it is a romance language that lies in the same sub-group as French. It has Germanic aspects to it perhaps, but my own (non-northern) Italian last name is based on a German root word for town.
I doubt the "clear documents" produced by ancient writers are very accurate as numbers given were notoriously exaggerated and a substantial portion of the indigenous Gaelic population remained intact. Roman colonies were founded and eventually expanded but Caesar was criticised for recruiting non-citizens in Cisapline Gaul to join his new legions. The fact that Lombard is related to French, a language with strong Gaelic influences, helps to prove my point.
Luigi Cavalli-Sforza is a geneticist who's worked closely with linguists on the study of populations. Conquerors who are outnumbered by the conquered populace tend to lose the genetic supremacy game and it's suprisingly closely correlated to the surviving language of the regions. Lombard is closely related to French not German and while both have Germanic aspects due to the Franks and Lombards the Gaelic influences are stronger. One of the few exceptions are when conquerors take up agriculture on the conquered lands maintaining a stable cultural foothold for language to develop. This helps explain Dacia's short term tenure under Rome and the influx of Roman veteran settlers, resulting in Romanian as a romance language.
Present day Northern Italians are no more German than the English are French due to Norman rule. They both carry the genetic remnants but those remnants aren't dominant. The Lombard League would love the theory that they're all Germans.
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I'm sure there are a lot of people who have a hard time putting food on the table who would LOVE to work the jobs that the stikers find unacceptable. My wife works for a government contractor and it is also illegal for them to strike. The people she works with are some of most lazy and jaded people I've ever seen. The people she deals with at work appall me on a daily basis, but hey its about 10 times better than her old job.
Just my own personal bias, but really... I've worked some crappy jobs and when I was dissatisfied, I found a different one.
I don't think there's anything wrong with striking per se. The Unions behind it helped bring in some great reforms you and I don't have to worry about. And laborers should be allowed to leverage in mass their common needs. It's as much a part of the capitalist process as corporations.
What ticks me off about NYC is the fact the strike is illegal and the Union broke the law as well as screwing over hundreds of NYC businesses who depend on this Christmas business to make the year profitable. The government of NYC and the Union would have been made to go to a mutually agreeable arbitrator to settle the issue in lieu of the right to strike. Striking is a fine and legit approach to leveraging against companies if legal and like everything in life timing is everything.
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Wouldnt go that far. To claim ALL Northern Italians are of Germanic Blood. The Numbers of Langobards compared to the local Italic-Roman population was 3 to 1 for the Italics. So the Mass Majority was Romance.
The Langobards were the ones that addepted to Latin and to local customs. And the total Fusion was straining, but it eventually happend. The langobards influenced the Nothern Italian Romance culture with Architecture( The Romanic and Germanic element fused in Architectrure in Northern Italy) and Linguistics, the modern Milanese dialect and the southern Swiss dialect(Ticino) are Lombard dialects(fusion of the germanic dialect and Latin) and belong to the Romance Languages. There was no other ethnic fusion in Northern italy, except for that. But the Lombard germanic blood went up in the Romance blood. So modern North-Italians have a good size trace of Germanic Blood. And a lot of Northern Italian culture and architecture is Romanic-Langobard(germanic) fused.
I've read of DNA studies which indicate that Northern Italians have DNA traits in common with Celts and Ligurians in pre-Roman times with little trace of commonality with Germans. Since the crucial DNA markers (forgotten the name) are carried down by the mother not the father it may indicate Lombards males intermarried with the locals much more often than their females.
Rennasance more of a Geramn ethnic thing than Italic/Roman?Michaelangelo, Da Vinci, Machiavelli, and Petrarch, all Tuscans, might disagree with that.
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What battle did Alexander the Great fight where he moved his cavalry laterally hiding a few hundred slingers following alongside them and was shadowed by the Persian cavalry? He suddenly made a charge into the rear flank of the Persian foot exposing the slingers who unloaded on the Persian cavalry to prevent their pursuit.
Slingers firing individually could be an big irritant but doing so in mass--several hundred small missiles coming at you at high velocity--must've been hell.
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Ave!
Let me announce my future daughter to you all. She is due in May and I'm here to officially ask for your help.
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(Oh, and Livia is right out...sorry!)
Congrats.
I just became the youngest grandfather I've ever met at 44. My son, who's half Italian (my half) and half an amalgam of European--English/Scots-Irish/French/etc or Heinz 57 as we used to say--decided to give him my Grandfather's first name as his son's middle name: Fioraivante. Not gonna go over well in school I tried to explain.
My favortie female names in Latin are Claudia, Veronica, Stella and Ursula. My favorite name is Zoe for a girl but it's Greek not latin.
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Julia, Valeria, Natalia, Victoria, Vera
I'm not sure about America, but these Latin names very popular in Russia.
Yes, add Olga, Svetlana, Nadya, Anastasia, Tanya and Ludmilla and you have 99% of the names of every woman I ever met while living in St. Pete's.
The Economic Consequences Of The Grain Dole
in Imperium Romanorum
Posted
Historically the money was on the side of the patricians who engaged an almost systematic attack on the plebian political structure. JC and Clodius played them at their own game and beat them. They did not like that, hell it drove them crazy.
The patrician/plebe struggle set the overall parameters of internal Roman politics. Re the outcome of the Social War, I don