Violentilla
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The only reference to statues directly concerned with Germanicus that I find is in tacitus's Annals, where here mentions that Marcus Valerius Messallinus and Aulus Caecina Severus wanted to erect a gold statue in his honour in the temple of mars, plus an altar of veangeance. Tiberius refused this on the grounds it was inappropriate. The public mood in the wake of the mans death is described as subdued rather than violent.
Thanks for looking. What exactly is an altar of vengeance? That sounds interesting.
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I've never heard the "hair like snakes" quote before and can't say anything about it, but ...
Some Celtic groups used chalk to make their locks stand up stiffly like spines, to present an alarming appearance during battle. I would suspect the practice was most common among the fanatical elements (the ones who fought naked and seem to have been in some sort of frenzy or ecstacy during battle, like the gaesatae).
There are several depictions of the practice. It does not resemble dreadlocks. It is depicted well in the statue of The Dying Gaul, although I believe his hair is supposed to be shorn because he is vanquished:
The Gauls are very tall with white skin and blond hair, not only blond by nature but more so by the artificial means they use to lighten their hair. For they continually wash their hair in a lime solution, combing it back from the forehead to the back of the neck. This process makes them resemble Satrys and Pans since this treatment makes the hair thick like a horse's mane.
This sounds every bit like what is depicted on the Iceni coin. I've heard it said somewhere that they used chalk (and Siculus says lime), but several of the bog bodies feature something different, a mixture of oils and resins that would have stiffened the hair in the same manner. But the style does not appear to resemble dreadlocks - it seems to stand on end for one thing - it is something altogether different. Nor does it look quite like spiked hair.
How very interesting! Thank you for gathering all of that for me!
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Or really, any instance of the Roman people 'punishing' the gods when they have let them down?
According to Suetonius, the Emperor Caligula was known to threaten the statue of the god Jupiter Capitolinus: ...in the daytime he would talk confidentially with Jupiter Capitolinus, now whispering and then in turn putting his ear to the mouth of the god, now in louder and even angry language; for he was heard to make the threat: "Lift me up, or I'll lift you."
(translated by J.C. Rolfe, Suetonius, Harvard University Press, 1920).
But then, Caligula was somewhat less than sane.
-- Nephele
Oh yes, I'd forgotten about that!
Thanks!
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No, I don't remember anything of this gravity. I thought all the hostility was against people like Piso. I will certainly check this out.
The accounts of Germanicus' death and the aftermath are quite detailed (Suetonius, Tacitus and Cassius Dio). Tacitus in particular mentions the destruction of Piso's statues...
Annals Book 3.14
On all points but one the defence broke down. That he had tampered with the soldiers, that his province had been at the mercy of the vilest of them, that he had even insulted his chief, he could not deny. It was only the charge of poisoning from which he seemed to have cleared himself. This indeed the prosecutors did not adequately sustain by merely alleging that at a banquet given by Germanicus, his food had been tainted with poison by the hands of Piso who sat next above him. It seemed absurd to suppose that he would have dared such an attempt among strange servants, in the sight of so many bystanders, and under Germanicus's own eyes. And, besides, the defendant offered his slaves to the torture, and insisted on its application to the attendants on that occasion. But the judges for different reasons were merciless, the emperor, because war had been made on a province, the Senate because they could not be sufficiently convinced that there had been no treachery about the death of Germanicus. At the same time shouts were heard from the people in front of the Senate House, threatening violence if he escaped the verdict of the Senators. They had actually dragged Piso's statues to the Gemonian stairs, and were breaking them in pieces, when by the emperor's order they were rescued and replaced. Piso was then put in a litter and attended by a tribune of one of the Praetorian cohorts, who followed him, so it was variously rumoured, to guard his person or to be his executioner.Cassius Dio and Suetonius also intimate the despair of the people over Germanicus' death but don't mention the destruction of Piso's statues. Tacitus does not suggest the destruction of any statues other than Piso's.
Right, I found that part in Tacitus, I wanted to see if I was missing somethign somewhere else.
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A good friend in another forum keeps making reference to the people being so angered by the death of Germanicus, that they destroyed statues of the gods in retaliation, as sort of a punishment to the gods.
I can find no mention of this, I did find something in Tacitus about the statues of Piso, but that is not what I'm looking for.
Anyone come across this?
Or really, any instance of the Roman people 'punishing' the gods when they have let them down? I'm looking for a correlation between this and the modern punishing of the saints done by Italians today.
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I do feel like I've seen that somewhere... But for some reason I want to say it was attributed to tribe near the Black Sea?
However, in regards to the Gauls specifically, I checked Strabo which would have been a likely source and this is all he says (4.4.3): "The Gauls wear the sagum, let their hair grow, and wear short breeches."
I will concede that it may show up somewhere else anecdotally in a discussion regarding another country but in his book on Gaul it does not.
When I get a chance I'll see what Pliny says.
I'd appreciate that.
Have you ever read about anyone in Rome wearing their hair this way?
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I know I haven't been around for a bit, but I have a question and I can't think of any group more likely to have the answer.
I recently, for personal reasons, decided to dreadlock my hair. While searching for information on this, I kept coming across the same undocumanted mention of the Romans describing the Celts as having "hair like snakes"
Does anyone know where this was said, or know of any documentable mention of Romans, Celts Greeks or Egyptians having dreadlocked hair?
While most "dreadlock" sites seem to attribute the quote to Caesar, after a bit of digging, it would seem that the "hair like snakes" quote is not attributable to any ancient source. Caesar doesn't seem to have said it anyway.
I wonder if it is one of those quotes that became history because someone said it in a movie.
In any case, I would like to hear of any ancient references to dreadlocked hair that are from good sources.
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I know I haven't been around for a bit, but I have a question and I can't think of any group more likely to have the answer.
I recently, for personal reasons, decided to dreadlock my hair. While searching for information on this, I kept coming across the same undocumanted mention of the Romans describing the Celts as having "hair like snakes"
Does anyone know where this was said, or know of any documentable mention of Romans, Celts Greeks or Egyptians having dreadlocked hair?
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Does anybody know what Voerenus and Pullo were collecting from the ashes of Niobe's pyre and why? Was there a designated area of Rome where such cremations were done? Vatican Hill?
They were collecting her bones presumably to be interred.
Did anyone notice the close-up of the dangling things in Vorenus' courtyard entrance when Pullo emptied the chamberpot into the street (about 3 minutes into the episode)? They looked like charred bone pieces tied together at intervals on string, some pieces had hair wrapped around it, others, not. There were also drying/dried herbs hanging. I had to rewind that scene a bunch of times to figure out what those things might be.
Could it be that some of these were Niobe's bone fragments? Perhaps as a ritual symbol of mourning?
I wondered about that too, certainly it looked like organic stuff tied to the strings, and it must have warned everyone outside the courtyard that the family inside was in mourning. I even lookd around to see if I could find anything about it in references to Roman funerals, but I came up empty.
Would love to know more!
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I just wished that they had spent more time on Erastes, if anyone ever deserved a drawn out death...
They couldn't, because Vorenus' children are not dead. I'm betting they're going to turn up in a later episode in a fairly dramatic fashion. Erastes had to die quickly as a plot device, because torture would have convinced Vorenus that Erastes initial answer, that he didn't know their whereabouts, was true, and the entire series would then have become Vorenus' search for his children, or would otherwise spoil the incident which will involve their dramatic return.
As for Erastes' motivation, repeated denials would have led to his torture, so he goaded Vorenus into giving him a quick death.
We thought the same thing! His death was so quick, there was no way to know if he just wanted to get one last dig in before dying. Also, we never saw anything more of the children after we saw Erastes in the doorway, so we are pretty sure he sold them off for the money as soon as he heard Caesar was dead and could no longer protect Vorenus and his family.
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I liked the way they left out the funeral oration and told it second hand. We have Shakespeare and Suetonius to show me the oration. I just wished that they had spent more time on Erastes, if anyone ever deserved a drawn out death...
I also liked the way it was portrayed. I think visually, it was more striking to show the state funeral of Caesar versus the private funeral of Niobe, and that was done beautifully. We know that Antony stirred up the crowd, and we see that.
Besides, who wants to compete with Shakespeare on such a wonderfully worded speech?
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I am flummoxed ..I have done a fair bit of reading regards roman funeral rites..I have never come across the breast milk in the mouth rite....was that an invention of the director, or is there such a rite?
I think it may be Egyptian:
Caesar did follow the ways of Egypt a great deal, and may have brought them with him:
In the funeral rites of ancient Egypt, it was sung that milk should never be far from the mouths of the dead. In the Egyptian Pyramid texts, Ra is asked to bestow the milk of Isis upon the deceased, thereby rendering them a surrogate child of the goddess. Utterance 406 requests abundance on behalf of the dead:
Greetings to thee RA in thy beauty, in thy beauties,
in thy places, in thy two-thirds gold.
Mayest thou bring the milk of Isis to (name of the dead), and the flood of Nephthys,
the swishing of the lake, the primaeval flood of the ocean,
life, prosperity, health, happiness,
bread, beer, clothing, food, that (name) may live thereof
Both nourishment and sweetness are asked for to strengthen the act of remembrance and after
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I think it may be Egyptian:
Caesar did follow the ways of Egypt a great deal, and may have brought them with him:
In the funeral rites of ancient Egypt, it was sung that milk should never be far from the mouths of the dead. In the Egyptian Pyramid texts, Ra is asked to bestow the milk of Isis upon the deceased, thereby rendering them a surrogate child of the goddess. Utterance 406 requests abundance on behalf of the dead:
Greetings to thee RA in thy beauty, in thy beauties,
in thy places, in thy two-thirds gold.
Mayest thou bring the milk of Isis to (name of the dead), and the flood of Nephthys,
the swishing of the lake, the primaeval flood of the ocean,
life, prosperity, health, happiness,
bread, beer, clothing, food, that (name) may live thereof
Both nourishment and sweetness are asked for to strengthen the act of remembrance and after
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Thanks for posting the Season 2 promo clip Violentilla!
You are quite welcome!
I am very excited about next season!
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Season 2 promo!
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Thank you!
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Is it too late to get in on this? I'd love a gothy name as well as a Roman name.
My real name: lijaliozf
With middle name:zyajmfloiila
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Carmen Possum
by an anonymous Latin scholar
The nox was lit by lux of Luna,
And 'twas a nox most opportuna
To catch a possum or a coona;
For nix was scattered o'er this mundus,
A shallow nix, et non profundus.
On sic a nox with canis unus,
Two boys went out to hunt for coonus.
The corpus of this bonus canis
Was full as long as octo span is,
But brevior legs had canis never
Quam had hic dog; et bonus clever.
Some used to say, in stultum jocum
Quod a field was too small locum
For sic a dog to make a turnus
Circum self from stem to sternus.
Unis canis, duo puer,
Nunquam braver, nunquam truer,
Quam hoc trio nunquam fuit,
If there was I never knew it.
This bonus dog had one bad habit,
Amabat much to tree a rabbit,
Amabat plus to chase a rattus,
Amabat bene tree a cattus.
But on this nixy moonlight night
This old canis did just right.
Nunquam treed a starving rattus,
Nunquam chased a starving cattus,
But sucurrit on, intentus
On the track and on the scentus,
Till he trees a possum strongum,
In a hollow trunkum longum.
Loud he barked in horrid bellum,
Seemed on terra vehit pellum.
Quickly ran the duo puer
Mors of possum to secure.
Quam venerit, one began
To chop away like quisque man.
Soon the axe went through the truncum
Soon he hit it all kerchunkum;
Combat deepens, on ye braves!
Canis, pueri et staves
As his powers non longius carry,
Possum potest non pugnare.
On the nix his corpus lieth.
Down to Hades spirit flieth,
Joyful pueri, canis bonus,
Think him dead as any stonus.
Now they seek their pater's domo,
Feeling proud as any homo,
Knowing, certe, they will blossom
Into heroes, when with possum
They arrive, narrabunt story,
Plenus blood et plenior glory.
Pompey, David, Samson, Caesar,
Cyrus, Black Hawk, Shalmanezer!
Tell me where est now the gloria,
Where the honors of victoria?
Nunc a domum narrent story,
Plenus sanguine, tragic, gory.
Pater praiseth, likewise mater,
Wonders greatly younger frater.
Possum leave they on the mundus,
Go themselves to sleep profundus,
Somniunt possums slain in battle,
Strong as ursae, large as cattle.
When nox gives way to lux of morning,
Albam terram much adorning,
Up they jump to see the varmin,
Of the which this is the carmen.
Lo! possum est resurrectum!
Ecce pueri dejectum,
Ne relinquit back behind him,
Et the pueri never find him.
Cruel possum! bestia vilest,
How the pueros thou beguilest!
Pueri think non plus of Caesar,
Go ad Orcum, Shalmanezer,
Take your laurels, cum the honor,
Since ista possum is a goner!
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Here is a much larger picture of Pertinax's bust on this site...
www.bstorage.com/photo/Italy/Rome/bust/index4.htm
If you click on their portraits you get a larger, more detailed image.
it also contains images of other Emperors with a Medusa image on their cuirass.
What a fabulous site! Thanks for the link.
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I found quite a nice military bust of the Emperor Galba with a fairly Hellenistic looking Gorgon on his breastplate:
I think it was a fairly common emblem to have on Imperial busts.
Yes, I'm sure that the myth of the aegis was something worth imitating, too.
I prefer the one on Pertinax's breastplate to this one though, it has better movement for a tattoo.
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Yes it's the archaic Medusa on the Hoplite shields dating to around the 5th Century BC, How did the image develop from this to the one that existed in Roman times? I always believed that Medusa had snakes on her head instead of hair and its only know that I realise that the bangles on the Hoplite shields were not snakes.
Does anyone know if the Romans made depictions of mythological creatures on their scutum during the early republican era? ( I have seen various paintings of Triarii and Hastatii with wolves and other animals on their shields.)
I can only guess at that and say that it may have been for artistic reasons. On early Greek and Apulian pottery Medusa had the tongue and fangs, and then later evolves into something more pleasing to look at. Perhaps public opinion changed of her, from a fearsome image to a protective one. Or it may be that when the idea of a Greek ideal of beauty took hold, that idealism won out over tradition.
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Yes that's the one!
I've also realised that Medusa was a popular motif among Greek Hoplites seeing as most illustrations of Hoplites seem to show at least one Hoplite with a variation on the Gorgon's head. A tatoo of her would be great.
If they are the early depictions I'm thinking they might be (military history is not my thing) they might be the archaic images of Medusa, which are really cool too. In early Greek depictions she is wild eyed, tongue out and with fangs. Sometimes she has no snakes at all, just curled bangs.
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Unfortunately I cannot find the image on the internet seeing as I saw the picture in the book 'Chronicle of the Roman Emperors' by Chris Scarre. The picture is of a bust of the Emperor Pertinax in his armour and just like you pointed out it has a engraving of Medusa on it. I had no idea that Medusa was portrayed in this more human form with a head of hair instead of snakes. Thanks for the info.
This one?
Quite lovely. I am working on a tattoo of her, this is a nice one. If you get a closer scan, let me know.
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thanks for the answers everyone! It makes sense that Generals did this for protection, so if they did it then the richer citizens who lived in villas probably painted the Medusa image on their walls as a way to protect their domus from evil spirits or from crooks. The Medusa as a protection amulet makes a lot of sense and it makes it similar to the evil eye amulet (to ward off jealousy and greed) which was also very popular in Roman and Byzantine eras.
On closer inspection of some of the busts of the Emperors i've noticed that what I originally thought was a depiction of Medusa on the armour (in the case of Pertinax, although other emperors have Medusa) is actually a man with long curly hair...from afar it looks like a gorgon. The man also has wings extending from his head and a cord tied under his chin. Could this be a depiction of Alexander or is it something from Mythology?
What you describe is definitely Medusa. She is sometimes depicted with wings from her head, the Gorgons were actually supposed to have wings from their backs (as in Greek pottery) but since the head became the depiction of choice, the wings moved from the back to the sides of the head. But the rope is actually a pair of snakes tied under her chin and the telltale artistic/decorative rendering to let you know that it is Medusa. Sometimes she has hair with only the snakes under her chin, again it's a stylistic thing. The famous Versace emblem, which is taken from a modern depiction of medusa, is the same as you describe. I would be very interested to see a picture of the armor you are looking at?
Lupercalia
in Templum Romae - Temple of Rome
Posted · Edited by Violentilla
I guess now is as good a time as any.
I am not as active on this forum as I was when I first joined, but I'm probably going to be around here a lot more.
My friend Rose and I perform regular Religio Romana festival celebrations that are 'mostly historic with a modern edge' (Lupercalia, Floralia, Vestalia, Bacchanalia, Neptunalia, Nemoralia, and Saturnalia). I usually make posts about them, complete with pictures, in my journal, and I used to post them in another forum, but they were not really in a good home there. I'm considering starting to post them here, where I can have a more focused audience, but as I said, they aren't state religion perfect, more of a modern interpretation with strong historic basis. For instance, we do not actually sacrifice a dog and a ram on Lupercalia, but we burn a straw effigy, and we do have two young men perform the Luperci duties.
Is anyone here open to this idea? Would you guys enjoy reading and seeing this sort of thing? We are always a little bit alone because we are not super historical, but I'm not 'Paganish" enough for the pagan forums either. I can post examples if anyone is curious.