Etruscan minutiae

[docoflove1974]

My family and I went to the Etruscan Museum in Chiusi, which is in Central Tuscany; it was a wonderful experience, as my dad and I (the history buffs of the family) know very little about the Etruscan people. The range of artifacts, both of artistic and quotidianal in nature, were enlightening and amazing to behold.

 

But we had a couple of questions and queries...maybe someone on here can help us?

 

1) Definitely there are known Greek influences (and of course Italic/Roman influences later), but many of the ossuaries, statues, and other personal carvings had almost an Egyptian element to them; certainly the various sphynxes, but even many of the faces (especially some of women) had the characteristic Egyptian eye and face shape. These statues were of the 7th through 5th centuries BCE. Was there a known link between the Etruscans and the Egyptians?

 

2)Also, there were some statues that were in positions and of likenesses that reminded us tremendously of Indian style (and specifically, more like the Buddha). These carvings were also of the 5th century BCE. Does this make sense to anyone? Or are we dreaming this?

 

3) There were on display pieces called 'fibulae' that totally puzzled us. All those on display were metal--mostly bronze, I think--and either semi-circular with a large clasp or flat. They seem to be decorative in nature; my dad thinks that they were used to hold hair back, but the name makes me think of the leg, so maybe it was an anklet? And if so, that explains the circular ones, or the ones with clasps...but not the flat ones.

 

Any and all answers are very appreciated! I did take pictures, and I'll post them when I get back to the States; the signal here is fairly weak.

[Artimi]

Sybille Haynes has written a few books on the Etruscan. I saved and got her book Etruscan Civilization- a Cultural History.. Well worth missed coffee etc.

[Ursus]

1) Definitely there are known Greek influences (and of course Italic/Roman influences later), but many of the ossuaries, statues, and other personal carvings had almost an Egyptian element to them; certainly the various sphynxes, but even many of the faces (especially some of women) had the characteristic Egyptian eye and face shape. These statues were of the 7th through 5th centuries BCE. Was there a known link between the Etruscans and the Egyptians?

 

According to Michael Grant, the Etruscans were the recipients of Near Eastern style influences from Phoenician traders. Having no great artistic tradition of their own, the Etruscans went through an "Orientalizing" phase in art around the 7th century BCE.

Edited June 20, 2010 by Ursus

[Bryaxis Hecatee]

fibulae are jewels used to hold one's cape, or one's mantle, in any case upper clothes : they were used in Greece, Italy, Gauls, and for a very long time (we have wonderfull germanic fibulae of merovingian dating for exemple).

 

About the relationship between etruscans and the rest of the world, it is know that they were traders, pirates when the need arose, and had a lot of contacts with the Carthaginian for exemple. But the strangest thing about them is that no one knows where they originaly came from and their language is still far from being completely understood...

[Melvadius]

fibulae are jewels used to hold one's cape, or one's mantle, in any case upper clothes : they were used in Greece, Italy, Gauls, and for a very long time (we have wonderfull germanic fibulae of merovingian dating for exemple).

 

About the relationship between etruscans and the rest of the world, it is know that they were traders, pirates when the need arose, and had a lot of contacts with the Carthaginian for exemple. But the strangest thing about them is that no one knows where they originaly came from and their language is still far from being completely understood...

 

 

Bryaxis, I think this may be a slight mistranslation from your native languagefibulae are normally referred to as broaches in English - although some of them are highly decorated and may even be 'jewelled' with precious or semi-precious stones that is fairly uncommon.

 

I believe the name may originally have referred to one of the basic Roman shapes for fibulae where they look like a bent knee and originally would have had a hinged pin (usually lost or broken) which swings across to close the gap.

[Bryaxis Hecatee]

Yes broaches are what I was thinking about, we usualy wall them fibules, fibulae being the latin for them... cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibula_%28brooch%29 (nice article full of pictures). Does fibulae have another meaning in english ? ( I mean outside of the bone we usually call peronn

[Crispina]

Yes broaches are what I was thinking about, we usualy wall them fibules, fibulae being the latin for them... cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibula_%28brooch%29 (nice article full of pictures). Does fibulae have another meaning in english ? ( I mean outside of the bone we usually call peronn

[docoflove1974]

Thank you so much, all (I tried to do this yesterday, but the satellite connection sometimes doesn't wish to behave). After posting, Dad and I had a sneaky suspicion that the Etruscans traded with the Phoenicians, which lead to the other influences. This lead to another question, and probably one for another thread (if it's not already on here): why did the Egyptians (and others) let the Phoenicians have the sea trade? Why didn't they develop their own? But like I said, that's for another thread, probably another area of the site altogether.

 

RE the fibulae...this helped us a lot. So were they only used for men? Were they only for the clasping of capes? How was the hair clasped back, if ever (by men or women)?

 

Ci vediamo e grazie mille...tomorrow I'm on my journey home, so I'll check back in a couple of days.

[Melvadius]

When excavating Roman sites we find any number of bone (and a few metal) hair pins so these were obviously very common items used across the Empire. In Britain the bone pins can be roughly dated depending upon how much decoration there is on them such as inscribed lines around the circumferance of the pin.

 

As far as fibulae are concerned I believe that both men and women would have used them for fastening clothing.

 

I'm not sure if anyone has any evidence for differences in fibulae shape based on sex as opposed to the obvious variations in design due to changes in fashion over time pointed up by the Wikipeadia article already referred to.

[Ursus]

This lead to another question, and probably one for another thread (if it's not already on here): why did the Egyptians (and others) let the Phoenicians have the sea trade? Why didn't they develop their own?

 

From what I have read the Egyptians were mainly concerned with navigating up and down the Nile. Being something of an insular race they seemed reluctant to travel too far from their homeland and its religious rites for the dead.

[docoflove1974]

I'm still working on the Tuscany pictures, but I finished the pictures I have of Chiusi and the Etruscan museum, including pictures of the cineraries and sphynx that I was mentioning. They're on Photobucket.com: click here

 

(edit to add: When my parents give me their pictures, I'll post them, as I'm almost positive my dad took some of the fibulae.)

Edited July 9, 2010 by docoflove1974

[Tribunicus Potestus]

My family and I went to the Etruscan Museum in Chiusi, which is in Central Tuscany; it was a wonderful experience, as my dad and I (the history buffs of the family) know very little about the Etruscan people. The range of artifacts, both of artistic and quotidianal in nature, were enlightening and amazing to behold.

 

But we had a couple of questions and queries...maybe someone on here can help us?

 

1) Definitely there are known Greek influences (and of course Italic/Roman influences later), but many of the ossuaries, statues, and other personal carvings had almost an Egyptian element to them; certainly the various sphynxes, but even many of the faces (especially some of women) had the characteristic Egyptian eye and face shape. These statues were of the 7th through 5th centuries BCE. Was there a known link between the Etruscans and the Egyptians?

 

2)Also, there were some statues that were in positions and of likenesses that reminded us tremendously of Indian style (and specifically, more like the Buddha). These carvings were also of the 5th century BCE. Does this make sense to anyone? Or are we dreaming this?

 

3) There were on display pieces called 'fibulae' that totally puzzled us. All those on display were metal--mostly bronze, I think--and either semi-circular with a large clasp or flat. They seem to be decorative in nature; my dad thinks that they were used to hold hair back, but the name makes me think of the leg, so maybe it was an anklet? And if so, that explains the circular ones, or the ones with clasps...but not the flat ones.

 

Any and all answers are very appreciated! I did take pictures, and I'll post them when I get back to the States; the signal here is fairly weak.

Herodotus, Linguistics and now genetics seem to agree, The Etruscans came from the east see here My link

 

Lydia in Turkey.

 

Some people think they are linked to what the Egyptians called the "Sea Peoples".

 

I was looking at Etruscan artwork yesterday and was quite surprised to find several depictions of sub-saharan africans. One must assume that most of the artifacts that have come down to us only a fraction have been found. Of those that still exist they are only a fraction of those created. So there must have been quite a few s.s.a.'s in Etruria and this would certainly suggest an Egyptian connection.

 

Seneca the younger wrote The difference between "us" and the Etruscans is "Where we believe lighting to be released as a result of the collision of clouds, they believe clouds collide so as to release lightning". "for as they attribute all to diety, they are led to believe not that things have meaning insofar as they occur, but rather that they occur because they must have a meaning." Sounds like egyptian thinking to me.

 

I recall from sixth grade (incredible isn't it.) we had a guest who had returned from Sudan while in the Peace Corps about half the people in the village he taught at were muslim so girls were not allowed to attend even if they were non muslim. But he told us about his experience, he said the locals believed that Malaria was caused by eating bananas. He asked his supposedly educated guide if he believed it. "Of course not! Everyone knows mosquitos cause malaria. But if you eat bananas it will make your blood sweet and attract the attention of mosquitos."

Edited October 1, 2011 by Tribunicus Potestus

[docoflove1974]

Actually, the article has a paragraph that begs to differ with that sentiment, and one which I would agree with linguisticially:

 

Despite the specificity of Herodotus

[Tribunicus Potestus]

Actually, the article has a paragraph that begs to differ with that sentiment, and one which I would agree with linguisticially:

 

Despite the specificity of Herodotus

Edited October 2, 2011 by Tribunicus Potestus

[Tribunicus Potestus]

I don't think one can dismiss Herodotus out of hand. Nor take others at face value. Even the greatest fool can speak the truth, while a scholar with credentials reaching the sky can be wrong. Each statement must be weighed on its own merit with an open mind. At least that is my philosophy. If it makes sense within the context of my experience I'll hear it out, no one is given a get out of jail card nor is anyone assumed to be wrong. Herodotus will always be closer to people who originated the stories than we will.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Tribunicus Potestus