guy Posted February 4 Report Share Posted February 4 (edited) It’s been a while since there has been a post about Hannibal’s elephants, which he brought over the Alps to terrorize Roman troops in 218 BCE. (See post below) Researchers have found ancient bones in Córdoba, Spain, that belonged to an African elephant, the type of elephant used by Hannibal and the Carthaginians (pictured below). The African elephant was not native to Spain. Hannibal used African elephants, in contrast to the larger Asian elephant used by Pyrrhus and later by the Seleucids, against Rome. These findings suggest that the elephant may have been: A Carthaginian war elephant stationed in Iberia before Hannibal’s march. A gift or trade animal from North Africa. A local elephant (unlikely, since native elephants were extinct by then). A symbolic or ritual animal used in elite ceremonies. The researchers also found spherical stones thought to be used for Carthaginian catapults (picture below) https://www.livescience.com/archaeology/romans/landmark-elephant-bone-finding-in-spain-may-be-from-time-of-hannibals-war-against-rome https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352409X2600012X?via%3Dihub A good video about Hannibal’s drunk elephants: Edited February 4 by guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidoLaMoto Posted February 5 Report Share Posted February 5 It's unclear how many elephants Hannibal started out with- 37 is a commonly quoted number- and even less clear how many survived the crossing of the Alps. Some sources say only one-- but Livy uses the plural "elephantes" when talking about subsequent battles....and he clearly states that it was the Roman cavalry horses that panicked "not only at the sight but at the unaccustomed smell of the elephants." He says that the Roman soldiers stood up well to them and quickly learned to "shoot darts at the animals' sides and stab them under the tails where the flesh is soft." (Livy Ab Urbe Condita https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0144%3Abook%3D21%3Achapter%3D55 ) Livy also says that his sources give conflicting numbers about the size of the Punic army and number of animals involved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar novus Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 (edited) On 2/4/2026 at 6:39 AM, guy said: These findings suggest that the elephant may have been: A Carthaginian war elephant stationed in Iberia before Hannibal’s march. A gift or trade animal from North Africa. A local elephant (unlikely, since native elephants were extinct by then). A symbolic or ritual animal used in elite ceremonies. It seems so unlikely that remains of a once whole visiting animal of extreme rarity could be found in the rugged deep interior of Spain, that I lean to the following afterthought explanation in that article: Quote They do not rule out the possibility, however, that the bone had survived because it was taken as a souvenir, as it is small enough to carry. Think of the fetish for rhino horns, ivory, etc even today leaving widely scattered artifacts that don't indicate animals were there. Edited February 12 by caesar novus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar novus Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 On 2/12/2026 at 8:34 AM, caesar novus said: It seems so unlikely that remains of a once whole visiting animal of extreme rarity could be found in the rugged deep interior of Spain, that I lean to the following afterthought explanation in that article: Here is a map of Hannibal's route thru Spain although it probably is speculation, biased by a presumption that coastal lowlands aren't as rugged as they are. Then a topographic map showing inland Cordoba is indeed on a river valley coming close in the east to another river snaking east thru mountains. But again those valleys may be really rugged. So IMHO even if 100 elephants were led thru and occasionally died in Spain it seems unlikely to find any ancient death site vs souvenir pieces spread far and wide. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidoLaMoto Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 (edited) In the map above, Hannibal's route looks like it follows the coastal plain, but Livy & Polybius both claim "he crossed" The Pyrenees and then camped at Iliberri. Livy uses the phrase "Pryenaeum transgraditur"-- but does that translate as "crossed over the Pyrenees" or merely as "proceeded past the Pyrenees?"... The town of Iliberri is back in south Iberia https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Maria-Oliva-Rodriguez-Ariza/publication/279092921/figure/fig1/AS:421820022169600@1477581138209/berian-Peninsula-with-the-locations-of-Ttugi-Iliberri-and-Basti-cities-of-Bastenati.png The Latin text may be in error, and maybe should read "Inlberri" a different unverified town? https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0144%3Abook%3D21%3Achapter%3D24 (click on "Latin by Foster" to the right and check footnote #3.)....edit- oh, wait. I just found this reference which says Iliberris was a town in Aquitania https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0064:entry=illiberis-geo02 ...and good point about finding only one bone. Edited February 15 by guidoLaMoto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar novus Posted February 15 Report Share Posted February 15 (edited) 15 hours ago, guidoLaMoto said: oh, wait. I just found this reference which says Iliberris was a town in Aquitania Behind Ency Britannica paywall is a detailed map of Hannibal's route with inland jog thru Pyrenees, but nowhere near Cordoba. The second article says it is unlikely a souvenir, but explanation is behind paywall (everywhere they show a "..."). Cordoba is out of the way for those Italy-bound but is close to the Carthaginian occupation zone so could have been pre-Hannibal activity or brought forward for his fighting retreat. The first article cited concludes: Quote researchers stressed that the elephant that died near Córdoba could not have been one of the "legendary specimens" that crossed the Alps with Hannibal. However, the bone is a relic of the ancient Punic Wars for control of the Mediterranean... Edited February 16 by caesar novus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar novus Posted February 16 Report Share Posted February 16 21 hours ago, caesar novus said: Behind Ency Britannica paywall is a detailed map of Hannibal's route with inland jog thru Pyrenees, but nowhere near Cordoba. Here is a thumbnail of a good Britannica map of Hannibal's route with rarely shown jogs and diversions. The Cordoba find was just west of the Baecula label. On the encyclopedia site there are full maps and excellent summaries. Not behind a paywall but sort of copyright wall making it hard to point URLs. I think our understanding of the Cordoba find would be better past the sciencedirect paywall, if anyone has some library privilege for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidoLaMoto Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 On 2/15/2026 at 5:44 PM, caesar novus said: .....a detailed map of Hannibal's route with inland jog thru Pyrenees,.... Detailed???...Our most ancient sources are Livy and Polybius....both devote exactly one short phrase to the concept of "crossing the Pyrenees." All subsequent sources can only refer back to them.... They both only give clues to the route from south Iberia to the foot of the Pyrenees by mentioning the Iberian tribes that needed to be subjugated or coerced into letting them pass. https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0144%3Abook%3D21%3Achapter%3D24 https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plb. 3.35 As I said earlier, in English, when we say "he crossed the Pyrenees," it is implied that he climbed up one side of the mountains and down the other, but in Latin, the word "transgredior" merely means "to go to the other side" -- the route not necessarily being defined. Note that in the next line, Livy mentions the "Spaniards who live beyond the Pyrenees"---" trans Pyrenaeum hispanos," OTOH- the battle at Baecula in 207 certainly employed elephants, and the new found bone was among other debris like ballista probably remnants of that battle....Was that bone evidence of an elephant lost in battle, a handy bone used as a ballistum, or a souvenir purposely saved? https://dnyuz.com/2026/02/13/elephant-bone-in-spain-may-be-proof-of-hannibals-tanks-with-trunks/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar novus Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 (edited) 12 hours ago, guidoLaMoto said: Detailed???...Our most ancient sources are Livy and Polybius....both devote exactly one short phrase to the concept of "crossing the Pyrenees." All subsequent sources can only refer back to them.... They both only give clues to the route from south Iberia to the foot of the Pyrenees by mentioning the Iberian tribes that needed to be subjugated or coerced into letting them pass. The maps with more squiggles may be taking topography into account, as well as linking ancient settlements. For example the Andorra area had Roman presence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra#Iberian_and_Roman_Andorra with a valley linking the east with Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra#Geography There are maps with even finer granularity that I can't seem to find again; precision vs. accuracy? I take topography as a serious influence having spent a week on a camel touring the Hoggar mountains in Sahara's center, typically on 45 degree sideslopes with trail little more than a foot wide. I had a skittish animal who got bullied off trail. Also have hiked Med coast where the trains and sometimes cars have to use tunnels. Finally I have bounced back and forth from Spain's coast to mountainous inland. Edited February 18 by caesar novus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidoLaMoto Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 (edited) I agree that personal observation of the topography can influence our speculations about probable routes of ancient travelers, but my point is that they are just speculations. We've developed these elaborate details based only on a couple words contained in the most ancient histories, all written decades or centuries after the fact.....It reminds me of the detailed picture we now have of a jovial, fat man dressed in red velvet, living at the North Pole with a wife with granny glasses and a troop of elves making toys, flying a sleigh drawn by reindeer who slides down every chimney in the world to deliver presents once a year....all having evolved out of one old report of a simple parish priest who once left nuts & apples on doorsteps of children on Christmas Eve. BTW- did you have to actually walk a mile to get that camel? ...nice anecdote...I bet that was quite an experience. Edited February 18 by guidoLaMoto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar novus Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 Yeah, I think the words, topography, and even the bone find have some amount of uncertainty. Luckily we now can assimilate this thru AI, which just told me that Hannibal brought elephants from Italy to Spain! I think that is a so-called hallucination which was meant to temporarily get the search/answer process unstuck. I used to work in this area: Quote Type: Evolutionary computation Uses selection, crossover, and mutation to evolve solutions. Camel safaris bookable thru France, but they forgot to notify my tour had been cancelled. On arrival I ended up alone for days in an encampment at the bottom of Algeria with no english or money exchange. I lived on my sort of powdered gatorade which worked well with Algeria's then-abundant fossil well water. Later they added me to a departed group with last choice of camel; I imagine some of Hannibal's beasts also had personalities that made the journey extra hard. It was scenic but wintry cold with buggy oasis stops that reeked of camel urine. There was drama in getting out of the country for all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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