The Effectiveness Of The Roman Army

[Furius Venator]

Please cite any ancient source that backs your claims.

 

I think you'll find that most folk agree that the hastati and principes used 'javelins' (if we should call them that for clarity) whilst the triarii used thrusting spears, and that all the ancient evidence backs this. There is one instance (Scipio if I recall correctly) of the hastati being armed with the triarii's spears for one battle. This was clearly unusual enough to be worth specific comment.

[roman wargamer]

Furius Vanetor Re-question again?

 

Please cite any ancient source that backs your claims.

 

xxx

 

reply

 

i do not need to prove me , myself wrong, it is your's call to rebutt my thread answer.

for i know very well that you have the time and knowledge to do the researching yourselves.

 

===

 

Q? I think you'll find that most folk agree that the hastati and principes used 'javelins'

 

(if we should call them that for clarity)

 

whilst the triarii used thrusting spears, and that all the ancient evidence backs this.

 

xxx

 

reply

 

because i myself pointed out only the Hastatus Acies, so i will limit it there:

 

The Hastatus weapons

 

 

spear = hastae

 

small javelin =velitaris

 

and they have more weapons than you normally think... but i think it is not the question here.

 

so what i mean... is that the Hastatus men have both a "spear and a javelin"... and ect.

 

that's why they are called the heavy infantry, they have more weapons than normal light infantry.

[Furius Venator]

I reluctantly conclude then that you have no ancient source and that your claims are mere conjecture.

 

Where does an ancient writer speak of the Hastati carrying both spear and javelins?

 

Or is that mere conjecture on your part also?

[roman wargamer]

Furius Venator

 

Q? reluctantly conclude then that you have no ancient source and that your claims are mere conjecture.

 

Where does an ancient writer speak of the Hastati carrying both spear and javelins?

 

Or is that mere conjecture on your part also?

 

reply

 

so you do not really know that the "VELITARIS" was a Hastatus weapon.

[Germanicus]

so you do not really know that the "VELITARIS" was a Hastatus weapon.

 

Roman Wargamer - Name your source/s.....Please.

[Furius Venator]

Pre Camillus when the Romans fought as a phalanx they were armed with the hasta or spear. No javelins.

 

Post Camillus things changed.

 

The light infantry (velites) carried a light javelin, velitarus, but not the hastati.

 

In any event you seem to be confusing two time periods.

 

Once again, which ancient author are you getting your ideas from?

 

I missed this before, sorry:

 

that's why they are called the heavy infantry, they have more weapons than normal light infantry.

 

You really believe that? Nothing to do with their method of fighting? Just your belief that they carried more weapons. By your definition then the Greek hoplite is a light infantryman...

Edited April 27, 2006 by Furius Venator

[roman wargamer]

Furius Vanetor Re-question again

 

The light infantry (velites) carried a light javelin, velitarus, but not the hastati.

 

xxx

 

reply

 

still you have not prove me wrong, because the Hastatus really use it.

 

_____________________________

 

I missed this before, sorry:

 

 

rw...that's why they are called the heavy infantry, they have more weapons than normal light infantry.

 

 

You really believe that? Nothing to do with their method of fighting? Just your belief that they carried more weapons. By your definition then the Greek hoplite is a light infantryman...

 

xxx

 

reply

 

the very weapons you have will dictate how are you going to fight... the battle field.

[Germanicus]

still you have not prove me wrong, because the Hastatus really use it.

 

Easy enough :-

 

Polybius 6.23:-

 

The next in age, who are called the hastati, are ordered to furnish themselves with a complete suit of armor. This among the Romans consists in the first place of a shield of a convex surface; the breadth of which is two feet and a half; and the length four feet, or four feet and a palm of those of the largest size. It is composed of two planks, glued together, and covered first with linen, and afterwards with calves' skin. The extreme edges of it, both above and below, are guarded with plates of iron; as well to secure it against the strokes of swords, as that it may be rested also upon the ground without receiving any injury. To the surface is fitted likewise a shell of iron; which serves to turn aside the more violent strokes of stones, or spears, or any other ponderous weapon. After the shield comes the sword, which is carried upon the right thigh, and is called the Spanish sword. It is formed not only to push with at the point; but to make a falling stroke with either edge, and with singular effect; for the blade is remarkably strong and firm. To these arms are added two pila or javelins; a helmet made of brass; and boots for the legs

 

 

On another note. You need to back you claims when you make them some of which quite frankly are rediculous.

[roman wargamer]

Germanicus say's Easy enough

 

Polybius 6.23:-

 

To these arms are added two pila or javelins;

 

 

reply

 

The Hastatus weapons

 

spear = hastae

small javelin =velitaris

 

so what i mean... is that the Hastatus men have both a "spear and a javelin".

 

the very translation of the word here "pila or javelins" are not accurate because...

 

the Roman have a very specific name for each and every weapons.

 

and i stand on my point that "not all legiones men have the same weapons and shields. as you said.

 

... let me have time to reply man... in a few days.

[Furius Venator]

I see. The Romans have specific names for specific weapons. So far, so good.

 

Do why then do you claim that Polybius' pila (a distinct form of javelin) are not in fact pila but a light javelin and spear, each of which, as you pointed out, have very different Roman names.

 

Polybius was a military sort of gentleman, he'd have been very aware of the difference between something designed to be thrown (the pila) and a thrusting spear.

[Germanicus]

Do why then do you claim that Polybius' pila (a distinct form of javelin) are not in fact pila but a light javelin and spear, each of which, as you pointed out, have very different Roman names.

 

I don't claim that, I claim that they are both Pila - translation - Javelin (for throwing) Certainly they were two different weights as you suggest, but both are Javelins not Hastae (translation spear or pike)

 

Here's another Polybius quote for you :-

 

The principes and the triarii are armed in the same manner likewise as the hastati; except only that the triarii carry pikes instead of javelins.

 

Note that line - "only the Triarii carry pikes(Hastae) instead of Javelins (Pila)

 

Sorry furious just realised what you were saying, and to whom - I'm getting confused by the confused.

[Furius Venator]

Germanicus, my remarks were aimed at romanwargamer, not yourself. I'm entirely of your mind on this. Sorry for any confusion

[Germanicus]

No worries, I realised after I posted.

[roman wargamer]

re / reply

 

The Hastatus weapons

 

spear = hastae

small javelin =velitaris

 

________________________________________________________________________________

 

"...'hasta' a long thrusting spear..."

 

Epitome of History

Dr. Karl Ploetz

( n.d. )

 

___________________________________________________________________________________

 

and "hasta 'velitaris' " is the light throwing spear [ javelin] with a soft iron point.

 

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some writer confused common reader because they use "spear" and "javelin" in synonymous way.

 

that why i came up with this ;

 

javelin term = for any kind of weapons intended for throwing

spear term = for any kind of weapons intended for thrusting

 

note: although spear are normally use also for throw weapon in a "close quarter combat."

[roman wargamer]

the Roman military legiones have a very specific name for each and every weapon.

 

 

"...'hasta' a long thrusting spear..."

 

 

so a "hasta" could be translated into a 'long thrusting' "spear term,"

 

===

 

then what do they call the small thrusting spear?

 

answer = it is called the "hastula."

 

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the possible origin of the name "Hastati or Hastatus."

 

hasta = spear

 

hastati = spearmen