Roman Medicine

[The Augusta]

1 victoriatus of a grain of nard (spikenard, used in this era for wounds (like Yarrow)).

 

Pertinax, I always thought that the Roman nard was our lavender. Could you confirm or refute this, please. I am sure I have never read a mention of 'lavender' in Pliny - but it is a while since I searched him properly; therefore, I assumed that the Romans did not know the word as such (yet I am sure they had the plant). Your expert knowledge would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Pertinax]

I would defer to the opinion of AD in this matter:

 

in his work "Dangerous tastes" he refers to the Syrian Nard which is none other than Valerina officcianalis (Valerian), now I can understand this herb being used to calm the stomach if a person was coughing violently, but...we might suspect spikenard to be present because of its pleasant fragrance (this seems to be its most notable Roman provenance). Many patent cough medicines tend to have a group of effective expectorants and antimicrobials intermixed with semi-poisinous alkaloids (ipecac/cohosh/lobelia) , with a camouflaging "bouquet".Spikenard would be just such a possible bouqet, valerian would not (it stinks like old socks).

Spike Lavender (L.spica) is known to have a Gallic range but is the "cheap" modern lavender.L stocheas is the true "french" lavender and as such has a modern history as a condiment and perfume.Both types must have been well known if anyone had an interest in fragrant honey.

 

This is the quote you may have seen:

 

"By the Greeks the name Nardus is given to Lavender, from Naarda, a city of Syria near the Euphrates, and many persons call the plant "Nard." St. Mark mentions this as Spikenard, a thing of great value.... In Pliny's time, blossoms of the Nardus sold for a hundred Roman denarii (or L.3 2s. 6d.) the pound. This Lavender or Nardus was called Asarum by the Romans, because it was not used in garlands or chaplets. It was formerly believed that the asp, a dangerous kind of viper, made Lavender its habitual place of abode, so that the plant had to be approached with great caution.'"

 

My suggestion for spikenard rests on the fact that I can only imagine the volatile oil of lavender being used as an external remedy for breathing problems.

 

So ...my vote is with spikenard because of its internal healing properties , given its medieval use for breathing problems and its anti microbial value Iits another cinnamon relative).

 

AD speak to us, what is your opinion?

 

PS Spikenard is an Inula species , like horehound a ferocious expectorant.

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

Roman toothpaste? Was there such a thing?

 

If so, what sort of toothbrush did they use? Or something else? A piece of cloth tied to a stick?

 

Dentifricium is the term that the Romans used for the cleaning of teeth.

 

They used a variety of substances, such as the bones, hoofs, and horns of certain animals, crabs, egg-shells, and the shells of the oyster and the murex, constituted the basis of the preparation.

 

Take a look

 

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roma...ntifricium.html

 

Think i'll just stick to Colgate

[Gaius Octavius]

My Gracious Lord :notworthy: :

 

Take a peek:

 

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/sear5/s0050.html

 

 

N.B.

Once again, someone is driving me nuts sabotaging my post. I know who he is this time.

He shall pay exquisitely. :sneaky2:

 

Edited January 24, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[Pertinax]

Thank you GPM , the myrrh makes sense as an antibacterial, and the pumice is only an ancient version of women using "exfoliating grains" (sand) as a skin cleanser. What we need is a toothbrush of ancient provenance.

[Gaius Octavius]

If the Romans didn't have a germ theory, was myrrh added as an anti-bacterial or for some other purpose?

Edited January 24, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[Lost_Warrior]

Think i'll just stick to Colgate biggrin.gif

 

Me too. Although, I really DO prefer cinnamon toothpaste. AND I have been known to use something called "Sea Fresh" which contains...I believe...kelp, and plankton, and silica among other things (that stuff is great by the way, I love it I just wish I could afford it/find it locally)

[Gaius Octavius]

I wouldn't vouch for reliability, but it is interesting:

 

http://www.florilegium.org/files/PERSONAL/...l-care-msg.html

 

http://www.florilegium.org/files/PERSONAL/...ygiene-msg.html

 

 

Baking soda today.

Smegma? Urine? And dung to fill teeth?

Edited January 25, 2007 by Gaius Octavius

[Lost_Warrior]

Baking soda today.

Smegma? Urine? And dung to fill teeth?

 

Um...*pukes* EWWWW. I don't know if I believe it either...but I think I've heard worse.

[Pertinax]

If the Romans didn't have a germ theory, was myrrh added as an anti-bacterial or for some other purpose?

They certainly didnt have germ theory (but then again quite a few "moderns" dismiss it as simplistic tripe) , however Myrrh has always been highly regarded as a stomachic (it would kill such everyday bacteria as Gardia for example) and it is quite pleasant in small (very small) quantities. The same logic can be applied to the cinnamon abd cardommon derivatives.

[The Augusta]

What we need is a toothbrush of ancient provenance.

 

All I can offer here, Pertinax - and it may or may not be reliable - is from the author Mary Renault, who wrote novels set in ancient Greece. I cannot remember exactly which novel it was now, but she had a character polishing his belt buckle with a twig that was chewed at the end to make it into a sort of brush. Whether or not she had made this up (unlikely, as she researched very thoroughly) or whether she had read it somewhere, it seems plausible that some kind of wood thus 'splayed' at the end through chewing or some other means, would serve as a small brush. Just an idea - you must judge for yourself if this would work.

 

 

If the Romans didn't have a germ theory, was myrrh added as an anti-bacterial or for some other purpose?

They certainly didnt have germ theory (but then again quite a few "moderns" dismiss it as simplistic tripe) , however Myrrh has always been highly regarded as a stomachic (it would kill such everyday bacteria as Gardia for example) and it is quite pleasant in small (very small) quantities. The same logic can be applied to the cinnamon abd cardommon derivatives.

 

Could you explain exactly what is meant by 'germ theory'. I had always believed that the Romans understood the need for cleanliness where wounds, illness etc. was concerned, without them understanding the connection to the causes of infection from bacteria.

 

 

Baking soda today.

Smegma? Urine? And dung to fill teeth?

 

Um...*pukes* EWWWW. I don't know if I believe it either...but I think I've heard worse.

 

Absolutely! No wonder Augustus let his teeth decay and drop out!

[Pertinax]

Mary Renault's "toothbrush tree" is very likely the same as gifted to myself, any Koranic scholars here will probably identify this as the "fringe tree" ( but Id be grateful for a definitive explanation ), this is what I had anticipated as the likeliest practical dental care.

 

Germ theory is adequately explained in this wiki precis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease

but I would comment as follows the Romans did not have a germ theory but in many ways the sanitation arrangements they sought were superior to our own, namely the use of a constant flow of water through any sanitation system (rather than periodic flushing ), and a culture of personal grooming as a sine qua non of civilised behaviour. This of course was not universal .

I adhere to the heretical "host resistance " theory, namely that micro-organisms are universal (for good or bad) and that the key factor is the health of the subject organism (particularly digestive robustness), if the health "threshold" is lowered then it is the job description of amoebae, flagellatae etc to seek to weaken and destroy the host organism. Germ theory is very much a conventional wisdom supporting chemical intrusion into the body. The quote from Paracelsus that "the dose makes the poison/medicine" hints at the logic that I suggest .

 

PS my own Grandmother considered having a WC inside a house to be noxious and offensive to body and soul, I remember a girlfriend in Paris whose own Grandmother likewise suggesting that a WC should be as remote as possible from her apartment ,and if that involved three flights of stairs so much the better.Where the Romans varied with this was in the fact that they might have a loo (if wealthy) inside the house near to the kitchen-but I venture to suggest that the Roman Loo might have been a multipurpose garbage/effluent disposal unit if so situated (what better in a warm client for getting rid of those nasty chicken entrails?).

[The Augusta]

Germ theory is adequately explained in this wiki precis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease

but I would comment as follows the Romans did not have a germ theory but in many ways the sanitation arrangements they sought were superior to our own, namely the use of a constant flow of water through any sanitation system (rather than periodic flushing ), and a culture of personal grooming as a sine qua non of civilised behaviour. This of course was not universal .

I adhere to the heretical "host resistance " theory, namely that micro-organisms are universal (for good or bad) and that the key factor is the health of the subject organism (particularly digestive robustness), if the health "threshold" is lowered then it is the job description of amoebae, flagellatae etc to seek to weaken and destroy the host organism. Germ theory is very much a conventional wisdom supporting chemical intrusion into the body. The quote from Paracelsus that "the dose makes the poison/medicine" hints at the logic that I suggest .

 

Phew - thank you for that, Pertinax. Alas, we are in the territory of microbiology, which is entirely beyond me, I fear. I have worked with neurosurgeons, rheumatologists and cardiologists, and have a workable knowledge of their specialties, but just how a staphylococcus aureus works is something of a mystery to me. Perhaps this is something we can explore at the UK meet. I remain in awe of your vast knowledge on this subject.

[Andrew Dalby]

I would defer to the opinion of AD in this matter:

 

in his work "Dangerous tastes" he refers to the Syrian Nard which is none other than Valerina officcianalis (Valerian), now I can understand this herb being used to calm the stomach if a person was coughing violently, but...we might suspect spikenard to be present because of its pleasant fragrance (this seems to be its most notable Roman provenance).

 

So ...my vote is with spikenard because of its internal healing properties , given its medieval use for breathing problems and its anti microbial value Iits another cinnamon relative).

 

AD speak to us, what is your opinion?

 

PS Spikenard is an Inula species , like horehound a ferocious expectorant.

 

Very sorry, everybody, peradventure I was out hunting. No, not literally. Actually I was gathering winter fuel. All right, back to work.

 

Some moderns, especially French moderns, make a confusion between ancient spica and modern Lavender (and admittedly one species does have the scientific name Lavandula spica, 'spike-lavender'). They are wrong (says AD). In this case the scientific name is no guide to ancient usage. Ancient spica was spica nardi, 'the spike (or shoot) of nard', and that meant the true spikenard from the Himalaya. Spikenard is Nardostachys Jatamansi (not actually an Inula). It is still obtainable.

 

Because it was damned expensive in the Mediterranean, the search was on for substitutes. Originally, I guess, substitutes that had some similar smell. Hence the urge to experiment with Valeriana, which must have had the right qualities. And I think it turned out that some Valeriana species had better medicinal qualities than real spikenard did, hence, probably, real spikenard eventually lost market share (in late Roman times).

 

For whatever reason, lavender doesn't seem to have interested Greeks or Romans very much. It appears to be iphyon in Greek, also mentioned once in Pliny, but just as a flower. The word lavandula doesn't occur in ancient or early medieval Latin -- I don't know, straight off, when it first does occur.

 

Is that any help? My attention is fully focused now ...

[The Augusta]

I would defer to the opinion of AD in this matter:

 

in his work "Dangerous tastes" he refers to the Syrian Nard which is none other than Valerina officcianalis (Valerian), now I can understand this herb being used to calm the stomach if a person was coughing violently, but...we might suspect spikenard to be present because of its pleasant fragrance (this seems to be its most notable Roman provenance).

 

So ...my vote is with spikenard because of its internal healing properties , given its medieval use for breathing problems and its anti microbial value Iits another cinnamon relative).

 

AD speak to us, what is your opinion?

 

PS Spikenard is an Inula species , like horehound a ferocious expectorant.

 

Very sorry, everybody, peradventure I was out hunting. No, not literally. Actually I was gathering winter fuel. All right, back to work.

 

Some moderns, especially French moderns, make a confusion between ancient spica and modern Lavender (and admittedly one species does have the scientific name Lavandula spica, 'spike-lavender'). They are wrong (says AD). In this case the scientific name is no guide to ancient usage. Ancient spica was spica nardi, 'the spike (or shoot) of nard', and that meant the true spikenard from the Himalaya. Spikenard is Nardostachys Jatamansi (not actually an Inula). It is still obtainable.

 

Because it was damned expensive in the Mediterranean, the search was on for substitutes. Originally, I guess, substitutes that had some similar smell. Hence the urge to experiment with Valeriana, which must have had the right qualities. And I think it turned out that some Valeriana species had better medicinal qualities than real spikenard did, hence, probably, real spikenard eventually lost market share (in late Roman times).

 

For whatever reason, lavender doesn't seem to have interested Greeks or Romans very much. It appears to be iphyon in Greek, also mentioned once in Pliny, but just as a flower. The word lavandula doesn't occur in ancient or early medieval Latin -- I don't know, straight off, when it first does occur.

 

Is that any help? My attention is fully focused now ...

 

That is certainly of help to me, AD - it clears things up very well. As for Valerian - I remember having cough medicine with Valerian in it when I was a child! It was a black linctus and had a sort of liquorice/aniseed taste - but I should imagine that was some sort of flavouring to make it palatable to children.