"Roman Salute"

[Ursus]

Symbols mean different things to different people. For instance, the swastika was a symbol in many ancient cultures that stood for the sun and/or good luck, long before it was ever appropriated by the occult-obsessed Nazi party.

 

I've always had an interest in the Roman salute. I too am very curious if there is any textual or iconic evidence it was used. If not, perhaps it is something that simply survived in folk memory. But the Roman salute, if it allegedly existed, was supposed to be a lot less ... mechanical ... than the Prussian-ized salute used by the Nazis.

 

I've heard in Germany it is illegal to give the stiff arm salute, which I find ridiculous. Again, symbols mean different things to different people. Even if it was invented by neo-classical admirers of Rome rather than Romans themselves, it still means what it means to modern day Romanophiles, a meaning that has no reference to Nazism.

[M. Porcius Cato]

In any case, it's much less spine-crawling than the awful Bellamy salute.

 

If the alleged Roman and Bellamy salutes were pre-Nazi, why should they be "awful"?

 

The Bellamy salute was not only pre-Nazi, but was used before, during, after the Nazis, and because it was used by the Nazis, it has become awful to behold. As an example of how awful it really seems these days, I asked an older colleague how he pledged allegiance to the flag (and to the Republic for which it stands etc etc), and he couldn't recall. When I asked about the Bellamy salue, he said he didn't even know what it was, and when I illustrated it based on the two photographs from the late 19th and early 20th century, the poor guy recoiled so violently he nearly fell over backwards. I'll bet you're clever enough to figure out why--even if the Bellamy salute were pre-Nazi--it should have been so awful to him.

[WotWotius]

Gaius was probably right in saying that it was probably from 1950s.

But still... I don't see how that could be an authentic classroom of the post WWII era in America. I find it very hard to believe any teacher would encourage that type a salute considering the socio-political environment of the time.

 

I'd be willing to bet it was from some B-movie. Regardless, I'm with Cato; it makes me quite uncomfortable.

 

So was I right in saying that the first photo shown on this forum was in fact from the 1950s?

[M. Porcius Cato]

So was I right in saying that the first photo shown on this forum was in fact from the 1950s?

 

Doubtfully. The Bellamy salute was discontinued as a salute to the flag by Roosevelt in 1942. Wikipedia has photos of the children of Japanese interns, presumably from 1942 - 1946, using the hand-on-chest salute. My guess is that the first photo was taken prior to Roosevelt's 1942 decision. It's hard to imagine that after WWII anyone would employ the Bellamy salute regardless of whether its pre-Nazi history was benign.

[DecimusCaesar]

I remember on a documentary 'War and Civilization' (with John Keegan and narrated by Walter Cronkite), they claimed that it was Gaius Marius who came up with the 'Roman salute' as well as the numerous other symbols for the newly formed legions. I have never read or seen any other program that makes the same claim, so I might have to look through Plutarch's Life of Marius to find the source (if it exists).

[Favonius Cornelius]

Ever notice how many Roman standards have a rigid hand icon at the top? Symbolic of a salute, or something else?

 

Can't find a picture of one but this is basically it.

[Gaius Octavius]

Ever notice how many Roman standards have a rigid hand icon at the top? Symbolic of a salute, or something else?

 

Can't find a picture of one but this is basically it.

 

A short while back we had a thread on this which I may have started. Can't find it. I think that the conclusion was that the hand meant: "This far and no more!". I am pretty sure that if you look in Pertinax gallery, you will see that standard.

[Skarr]

In any case, it's much less spine-crawling than the awful Bellamy salute.

 

If the alleged Roman and Bellamy salutes were pre-Nazi, why should they be "awful"?

 

The same goes for the swastika, which actually meant "luck." It also is still in use today for mainly Buddism.

 

Actually, that is a little incorrect. The "swastika" is very much an ancient Hindu symbol, which is a mystical representation of two major ideas - time and consciousness. It is very commonly found throughout India, especially in ancient temples and sculptures, where the design is etched into the stone wall or the column, going back thousands of years.

 

The word itself is derived based on sanskrit symbols. One is the symbol 'su' which roughly translates as "well" or rather, well-being or existence in a state of health. The second symbol 'asti' is directly related to existence and roughly translates as "to be".

 

Imagine a wheel made of a cross with its arms bent - the spirals representing the arms move either clock wise or counter-clockwise in upward or downward spirals when spinning, which, in a mystical explanation, represents the many states of "reality" that are available to a human soul - the meaning of 'asti', as existence can be perceived as a state of consciousness in different planes of reality.

 

Hitler hijacked this symbol for his use and the meaning today is lost, as people invariably associate this ancient symbol with the "Nazis". In layman terms, this symbol (before Hitler) was associated with good luck. In many Hindu charms, there are also dots (representing a human soul) in each of the spaces formed by the spiral. This was another way of explaining the multi-faceted view of reality in that different human beings may exist on the same place of consciousness but in different places, as it were, as they possess different realities (which in this case may be seen as different points of view), because of their unique, individual experiences.

 

Sorry for the long post but I always get irritated when someone loosely comments on symbols without understanding their true origin / meaning.

Edited September 19, 2006 by Skarr

[Gaius Octavius]

In any case, it's much less spine-crawling than the awful Bellamy salute.

If the alleged Roman and Bellamy salutes were pre-Nazi, why should they be "awful"?

The same goes for the swastika, which actually meant "luck." It also is still in use today for mainly Buddism.

Sorry for the long post but I always get irritated when someone loosely comments on symbols without understanding their true origin / meaning.

 

I am wondering what is 'irritating' about the first two quotes? The last quote may be lacking, but then someone generally enters the discussion to complete or compliment the idea. I believe that this is the object of most threads.

[Favonius Cornelius]

I beg forgiveness for going off topic here, but I have seen the swastika used in illustrations of early Italians, and I am pretty sure I have actually seen it on some item...maybe pottery or something, I'll post if I can find it. I know at least that one of the Osprey illustrated books depicts an early Italian with swastikas on his tunic, and I think the RTR expansion to RTW saw this and adopted it for one of the units.

[Gaius Paulinus Maximus]

Here's a modern picture of a true Roman using the salute

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/4163979.stm

 

He got into quite a bit of trouble after this incident and may have even been banned for a number of games

Edited September 19, 2006 by Gaius Paulinus Maximus

[M. Porcius Cato]

Sorry for the long post but I always get irritated when someone loosely comments on symbols without understanding their true origin / meaning.

 

Where do you think symbols get their meaning except by associations? Since associations change over time, the meaning of the symbols change as well. What makes the meaning of the Hindu swastika ('good luck') its TRUE meaning any more than the meaning given to the swastika by the Nazis? The Hindi associations aren't any more important or real than the ones who suffered under Hitler. Again, the same point holds regarding the 'Roman' salute, which is why I think Roosevelt was right to choose another gesture as part of the pledge.

[Skarr]

Cato, Gaius - I am schooled.

 

I guess I should have pinpointed the source of my "irritation" more clearly. You are obviously right, symbols do gain more meaning with association or rather, additional or new meanings. With regard to the "good luck" message, as I pointed out in my post, this is a "popular" meaning and the main meaning is actually more metaphysical and is centered on time / realities / existence and consciousness.

 

The irritation I felt was the comment that it was mainly related to Buddhism, which is incorrect. I realize that there are a number of overlapping symbols between Buddhism and Hinduism (which later absorbed Buddha as one of the avatars, leading to further confusion). However, this particular symbol is Hindu in origin and has been that way for millenia until it was adopted by the Nazi party. In fact, before Hitler, even the Boy Scouts had this as one of their symbols before it was withdrawn (sometime in the 20's I think).

Edited September 19, 2006 by Skarr

[Gaius Octavius]

In fact, before Hitler, even the Boy Scouts had this as one of their symbols before it was withdrawn (sometime in the 20's I think).

 

I don't know if it was a Boy Scout badge or not. But if it once was, it may have been because the symbol was also used by North American Indians. Its meaning to them, I know not.

[Antiochus of Seleucia]

Ever notice how many Roman standards have a rigid hand icon at the top? Symbolic of a salute, or something else?

 

Can't find a picture of one but this is basically it.

 

A short while back we had a thread on this which I may have started. Can't find it. I think that the conclusion was that the hand meant: "This far and no more!". I am pretty sure that if you look in Pertinax gallery, you will see that standard.

 

That would be this topic, with the hand at the top of the standard being a symbol of power.