Lead poisoning and it's effetcs.

[Pantagathus]

The most dangerous thing the Romans did with lead was to make sapa-sour wine boiled down in lead pans to make a sweetening agent (lead acetate syrup in effect), it is this product that is the key to the lead debate rather than the plumbing.

 

Is it the same as Passum? (which i believe is reduced new wine/must) As you say, passum was used extensively as a sweetener.

 

(or caroenum?)

 

On a different note, did I read correctly that the Romans used large wood-log piping in Britain?

Edited January 12, 2006 by Pantagathus

[Pertinax]

The most dangerous thing the Romans did with lead was to make sapa-sour wine boiled down in lead pans to make a sweetening agent (lead acetate syrup in effect), it is this product that is the key to the lead debate rather than the plumbing.

 

Is it the same as Passum? (which i believe is reduced new wine/must) As you say, passum was used extensively as a sweetener.

 

(or caroenum?)

 

On a different note, did I read correctly that the Romans used large wood-log piping in Britain?

 

I think Passum is another term and defritum also, Garum was probably reduced in a similar way . Yes well done on the pipes-I think sophisticated townies got lead and out in the country it was as much wood as you could eat.

 

and caroenum also!

Edited January 12, 2006 by Pertinax

[Pantagathus]

I think Passum is another term and defritum also, Garum was probably reduced in a similar way . Yes well done on the pipes-I think sophisticated townies got lead and out in the country it was as much wood as you could eat.

 

and caroenum also!

 

In the case of defritum I think that was a particular product of the fig.

 

Garum... My goodness that was rendered by the heat of the sun was it not?. For a loooooooong time.... Though I would suggest a good modern substitute for garum to be asian oyster sauce. (Used quite a bit in my house!)

 

p.s. You do realize that I cannot get Mr. Jones out of my head now due to the wood comment!

[Pertinax]

Sorry I was not clear in my meaning-all these things were at some point rendered down in lead lined vessels, the sweeter the end product it seems the more lead one consumed (logical really).

 

It may be suggested that kohl eye makeup is possible source of trouble, given ,that lead and antimony were said to be used in its production. However much of the exported Egyptian product was charred Frankincensce gum.

 

 

 

this new learning amazes me Sir Bedevere!

Edited January 13, 2006 by Pertinax

[Sextus Roscius]

very well educated posts pertinax, and I beleive pantagathus was making a coment on wooden piping in Britian.

 

Yes, wooded piping was used in Britian becuase it was easy to find, and epecialy acessable to the Roman legions stationed in forts along Hadrion's wall. They did this by taking a tree, cutting it down and removing all the branches. They then some how hollowed out the inside and viola! A pipe.

[Andrew Dalby]

The most dangerous thing the Romans did with lead was to make sapa-sour wine boiled down in lead pans to make a sweetening agent (lead acetate syrup in effect), it is this product that is the key to the lead debate rather than the plumbing.

 

Is it the same as Passum? (which i believe is reduced new wine/must) As you say, passum was used extensively as a sweetener.

 

(or caroenum?)

 

On a different note, did I read correctly that the Romans used large wood-log piping in Britain?

 

I think Passum is another term and defritum also, Garum was probably reduced in a similar way . Yes well done on the pipes-I think sophisticated townies got lead and out in the country it was as much wood as you could eat.

 

and caroenum also!

 

 

Hold on, let's bring some logic into this! If you wan't to make a sweetener, you won't start with sour wine, which contains practically no sugar. You'll start with grape juice (must), which is very rich in sugar, which is exactly why it's so good for making wine.

 

Defrutum or defritum is must, boiled down to concentrate the sugar and to stabilise it slightly (beyond a certain concentration of sugar, the yeast won't get to work). You used to be able to buy it at Boot's in the winemaking department: they called it concentrated grape juice.

 

Sapa would be the same, but boiled down further, probably syrupy rather than watery, and very very sweet.

 

Passum is totally different, it's raisin wine, (definitely alcoholic but also sweet), expensive then as it is now because by letting the grapes lose some of their moisture you are reducing the volume of your product and making its manufacture more difficult. But it's lovely! (A French term for passum is vin de paille because the grapes can be semi-dried on straw matting; the Italian is passito).

 

The term 'new wine' is sometimes encountered. In the Acts of the Apostles for example, the apostles were said by unsympathetic observers to have been at the new wine. This is the vinous equivalent of scrumpy -- it's must which is yeasty, already partly fermented, a bit fizzy, still quite sweet and therefore all too easy to drink. Must is such a fine environment for yeast that it begins to ferment almost at once, even faster than apple juice.

[Pertinax]

sorry bout that I was scything through proper definitions in my eagerness to talk about the vessels used.

[Arvioustus]

Recently on the science channel they had a special where these 'expets' state lead was consumed by indirect menas through dishware..etc. to the tune of about 30 ml grams a day. This causes still birts, no births and mental instability. Romans cooked down grape syrups and other thing in lead on a daily basis. I know a lot of people detest this as a reason for the decline but chemistry is there. Perhaps this did cause a major decline...if humans consumed this today it would. Maybe Nero and others as they could have been born like this or develpoed it from lead. Perhaps. Also, the decline of enough Romans for the army (hence needing others) was at of neccessity. Perhpas?

[Pertinax]

If you drop into the "Humanitas " area and check down for the "poisoning " thread there is quite a bit of information -however further debate regarding continued use in Byzantium is needed.

 

roman water supplies is the title

Edited January 15, 2006 by Pertinax

[Neos Dionysos]

I've heard this used as a reason... but I do not put too much stock in it... yes the Chemistry is there but I would think we'd see alot more of unstable emperors... and birth defects/no births would be a significant sign to see. The reason for the loss in manpower was not low birth, but the fact the army was something that was not a career people wanted to go into... sons of veterans were FORCED to serve... you did not have volunteers... people would multilate themselves so to render themselves incapable of serving, depopulation occured in the west because of the chaotic times, the east in contrast grew in size and population... I think the lead poisioning contributed a little bit, I don't consider a major, or high supplemental cause at all.

[Pertinax]

could this thread be moved to join the humanitas thread (water supply)?

Edited January 15, 2006 by Pertinax

[Ursus]

could this thread be moved to join the humanitas thread (water supply)?

 

 

So shall it be written, so shall it be done.

[Pertinax]

the thread has covered quite a bit of ground -can those who are scholars of Byzantium tell us something of the use of lead in the Eastern Empire? Favonius Cornelius has pointed out previously the use of lead ,almost to the threshold of contemporary use , in the West -and I would like to mention the rather significant factor of mercury amalgam fillings (for teeth) as not yet having killed off Western Civilisation despite gross potential toxicity.

[Klingan]

As th lead poisoning subject again and again pop up in the thread concerning "What Made Caligula Cad" (If he was truly crazy). Therefor I though I'd start this thread and try to see this from a more general view. I've always been of the opinion that lead poisoning was most likely not one of the major or even minor factors that led to the empires decline and fall. I would still like to explore the possibility thou.

 

Here's some of the questions and anwsers from that thread to start with:

 

Lead poisoning has been tried to be linked with the decline and the fall of the Roman Empire for more than a century.

 

Briefly, some of the most prominent flaws showed by many of these theories are:

 

- The lack of an operative definition for "decline" and/or "fall". What social or political phenomena are these theories trying to explain? Exactly where and when did they happen?

 

- An unrealistic appraisal of the clinical signs of saturnism. Vg, even if mild cognitive impairment is common, dementia (

[Pertinax]

There has been some discussion previously, Ive hunted the thread down and merged it with Klingan's latest post . Scrolling backwards now gives some hint as to arguments previously considered in the debate.