Caesar CXXXVII

Just wait a second , if Marcus Iunius Brutus was adopted by his uncle, Quintus Servilius Caepio and became Quintus Servilius Caepio Brutus (why not Quintus Servilius Caepio Iunianus ?) why we continue to regard him as Marcus Iunius Brutus ? How should we name him ? why not just Caesar's ("The wicked") Assassin ? Now Seriously...why Marcus Iunius Brutus ?

Probably by adoption . It seems that Plutarchus regarded him as a direct descendant of "the Africani" or something like that . As for any ancestry, We can't ignore the name "Pomponianus" . Forgery ? A possibility but we need evidence . I think it would be hard for someone to say "I am a Scipio" or "he is a Scipio" and get on with it, don't you ?

Back to the lineage of the last Scipio's. At the end of the republic there were 1. The son of Pius Scipio

The best "Nero" that I have seen . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWwX9Bw4Ruo

Specially because, if he was the son of Sestius, why was his name Cornelius Scipio? Here comes Caius Suetonius Tranquillus, Vita Divus Iulius, cp. LIX, sec. II: Ad eludendas autem vaticinationes, quibus felix et invictum in ea provincia fataliter Scipionum nomen ferebatur, despectissimum quendam ex Corneliorum genere, cui ad opprobrium vitae Salvitoni cognomen erat, in castris secum habuit. "Furthermore, to make the prophecies ridiculous which declared that the stock of the Scipios was fated to be fortunate and invincible in that province, he kept with him in camp a contemptible fellow belonging to the Cornelian family, to whom the nickname Salvito had been given as a reproach for his manner of life". And here comes Lucius Mestrius Plutarchus, Caesar, cp. LII, sec. IV-V: "On learning that the enemy were emboldened by an ancient oracle to the effect that it was always the prerogative of the family of the Scipios to conquer in Africa, he either flouted in pleasantry the Scipio who commanded the enemy, or else tried in good earnest to appropriate to himself the omen, it is hard to say which. He had under him, namely, a man who otherwise was a contemptible nobody, but belonged to the family of the Africani, and was called Scipio Sallustio. This man Caesar put in the forefront of his battles as if commander of the army, being compelled to attack the enemy frequently and to force the fighting". And here comes Cassius Dio, Historia, Liber XLII, cp. LVIII, sec. I: "When Caesar learned of this and saw that his own soldiers also were persuaded that it was so and were consequently afraid, he added to his retinue a man of the family of the Scipios who bore that name (he was otherwise known as Salutio)". The orthography of his agnomen varies considerably among the diverse translations of these sources. Nice . Plinius, Historia Naturalis " and after him, another Scipio of the same family was surnamed Salvitto, after a mime of that name The word " mimus" was applied by the Romans to a species of dramatic performance, as well as to the persons who acted in them. The Roman mimes were imitations of trivial and sometimes indecent occurrences in life, and scarcely differed from comedy, except in consisting more of gestures and mimicry than of spoken dialogue. Sylla was very fond of these performances, and they had more charms for the Roman populace than the regular drama". And " when, upon passing through the hall of Scipio Pomponianus he observed that, in consequence of a testamentary adoption, the Salvittos, for that had been their surname to the disgrace of the Africani, had surreptitiously contrived to assume the name of the Scipios" . A foot note from the translator "So called from his father-in-law pomponius, a man Celebrated for his wealth, and by whom he was adopted. It would appear that Scipio Pomponianus adopted Scipio Salvitto, so called from his remarkable resemblance to an actor of mimes were probably branch of the Gens Cornelia" . Tell you true, I am "working" on this "Salvitto" for a while - so many speculations about him . Edit : Tell you THE truth...

Varro will allways be remembered as the man who "invented" the Varronian years !

Thank you Neph. and Pompey . Yes, Salvitto...a Problem . About Smith's chart - I am ignoring the sarcastic remark . I have found several differences and I tend to accept the more modern stemmas and speculations, they are more detailed and have more people . That is the difference between 1870 and more than 100 years of prosopography .

The Scipio's are the most famous, interesting and extolled single family in the history of the republic and produced the most illustrious man of that period (together with C. Iulius Caesar) P. Cornelius Scipio Africanus . He and other Scipio's were at the head of the republic for decades, and one scholar (don't remember his name) said that after Zama, Africanus was the most powerful man in the world. Alas, no Scipio was ever a leader (Pius Scipio was one of many) of a faction in the struggle for power in the last 100 years of the republic and beyond. In this list I will try to illustrate how the Scipio's died out literally and will mention many "lost" members of the family. Basically the Scipio's had two branches stretching from one single ancestor, that is, from L. Cornelius Scipio "Barbatus" cos. 298 . One branch started from his first grandson, G. Cornelius Scipio "calvus" cos. 222 and the second started from his second grandson, P. Cornelius Scipio cos. 218 . Africanus (princeps senatus 199-183) and his brother L. Cornelius Scipio Asiaticus (another famous general who ancient historians liked to underestimate him) were the sons of the consul of 218 . The conqueror of Africa and Hispania had 4 children 1. L. Cornelius Scipio who became praetor in 174 and died without children end of line 2. P. Cornelius Scipio who became an augur and died young and with one son P. Cornelius Scipio Who became flamen dialis and died young and without children. The augur adopted the son of L. Aemilius Paullus cos. 182 and 168 . This son was named P. Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus (later Africanus Numantinus), cos 147 and 134. He too died without children end of line 3. Cornelia minor who married Ti. Sempronius Gracchus cos. 177 and 163. Their sons were the Gracchi brothers end of line 4. Cornelia major I shall return to her later Such was the end of Africanus lineage . Before turning to Asiaticus line, let us see the line of second branch, that of the consul of 222 . He had two sons : 1. G. Cornelius Scipio Hispallus cos 176 who died while consul . He had two sons Lucius Cornelius Scipio (died at the age of 20 without children) and G. Cornelius Scipio Hispanus praetor 139 . This praetor had a son, Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio, Who became praetor c. 109 and died without children end of line 2. P. Cornelius scipio Nasica cos 194 "The best man in the republic" . Nasica died in c. 171 and had one son. P. Cornelius Scipio Nasica "Corculum", the princeps senatus between c. 147 and c. 142 . This "Corculum" married the above Cornelia major and the couple had one son, P. Cornelius Scipio Nasica "Serapio" cos. 138 a Scipio on both sides ! "Serapio"s one son was the consul of 111 who had the same name of his father . This consular had two children : 1. Cornelia who married one named P. Cornelius Lentulus Marcellinus (a Lentulus by birth who was adopted by one M. Claudius Marcellus) 2. P. Cornelius Scipio Nasica praetor c. 93, died in 90, married a Licinia . They had two sons L. Licinius Crassus Scipio (he was adopted by his grandfather, L. Licinius Crassus cos. 95) who died at the age of 14 (end of line) and P. Cornelius scipio Nasica who was adopted by the consul of 80, Q. Caecilius Metellus Pius and became Q. Caecilius metellus Pius Scipio (Nasica) . The last one was cos 52 ,died in 46 and left two children a son who died at the age of 18 and a daughter, Cornelia who married P. Licinius Crassus the son of the IIIVIR and than Pompeius magnus end of line So, the Nasica line did not survived the republic but the Asiaticus line did by a "strange" way . Asiaticus, the brother of Africanus, Had one son, L. Cornelius Scipio Asiagenus who managed to become quaestor before dying at the age of 33 in 167. He had two sons, Lucius Cornelius Scipio (died without children) and Scipio Asiagenus Comatus . This Comatus had a son, L. Cornelius Scipio Asiagenes/Asiaticus cos 83 . The consul had two children L. Cornelius Scipio who was proscribe and died without children and Cornelia . This Cornelia Married P. Sestius and their son named L. or P Cornelius Scipio Salvitto. Salvitto is an enigma . I have found some sources that say he adopted a pomponius who became L.? Cornelius Scipio Pomponianus and/or that his biological children were Cornelia (married Paullus Aemilius Lepidus cos. 34) and P. Cornelius Scipio cos. 16 . In any case, the consul of 16 had a son Scipio the adulterer of 2 BC and the last "genuine" Scipio (other Scipio's were not related to the family). There are many conjectures about Salvitto and by some he was the ancestor of the later Scipio's of the 1st and 2nd centuries . The Subject is so complicated that I left it for another day . Hope You enjoyed it ! Sources : Broughton, T.R.S. - Candidates Defeated in Roman Elections: Some Ancient Roman Also-Rans, 1991 Broughton, T.R.S. - The Magistrates of the Roman Republic, 1968 Broughton, T.R.S. - The Magistrates of the Roman Republic, Supplement, 1986 Dessau, Hermann and Rohden, Paul von, 1978 Gelzer, Matthias - The Roman Nobility, 1969 Groag, Edmund and various - Prosopographia Imperii Romani, 2nd ed 1933 2006 Gruen, Erich S. - The Last Generation of the Roman Republic, 1974 Münzer, Friedrich - Römische Adelsparteien und Adelsfamilien, 1963 Scullard, H.H. - Roman Politics 220-150 BC, 1981 Settipani, Christian - Continuite Gentilice et Continuite Familiale dans les Familles Senatoriales Romaines a l'Epoque Imperiale: Mythe Et Realite, 2000 Shackleton Bailey, D.R. - Two Studies in Roman Nomenclature, 1976 Syme, Ronald - The Augustan Aristocracy, 1986 Syme, Ronald - The Roman Revolution, 1968 Wiseman, T.P - New Men in the Roman Senate, 1971

A correction - Marcius adressed the Rodian Delegate . Polybius 28.17 - "And afterwards Marcius, taking him aside, said he wondered why the Rhodians made no attempt to put an end to the present war between Antiochus and Ptolemy, as it was their business to do so if anyone's. Now it is a question whether he did this because he was apprehensive lest Antiochus should conquer Alexandria, and they should find in him a new and formidable adversary

Is that the sound of you falling off your computer desk chair, having made (while apparently under the influence of alcohol) yet another abstruse posting? -- Nephele Wow, sorry . I will try to be more serious next time . Btw, I hate alcohol and the BOOM CRASH is the 10 commandm' smasing on the ground . Take it more easily , life is too short

What what ? Edit : O.k - DeMille - A director, 10 commandments - his movie, 04.12.1923 - premier, Moses - a prophet who according to the bible was 7 cubit tall (people saw his image in movie for the first time and he was 1.7 meters) and was stuttering - The movie was a silent movie so DeMille did not had a problem with that... O.K ? Second edit: Should I explaine the BOOM CRASH ?

The consul Q. Marcius Philipus was stuck with a war he could not win . Than, a delegation from various states came to meet him . When the conference ended, the mighty consul step down and talked with the Achaean ambassadors . He told them to go and mediate in "the war" . Since than Scholars are breaking their heads trying to understand the move . Naturaly, there are only two possibilities : 1. Marcius reffered to the third Macedonian war (with all the consequences for his status, for Rome's status etc') 2. Marcius reffered to the Six Syrian war (ie the war between Antiochus III and the Ptholemies) The majority of scholars prefer the second alternative . What do you think ? why ?

By Cecil B DeMille . Until then people thougt that Moses was 3.12 meters . Demille did not had (have?) a problem with Moses' stuttering....(tthhese are ttthhhee tttttenn cococommmmma....dddamn....BOOM CRASH !!!)

From the sources mentioned above there were two consuls with Jewish origin - cos. suff. 116 and his father Gaius Iulius Alexander (the grandson of the Jewish prince Alexander, before 109) . Another source mentioned a third - "Tiberius Julius Alexander Julianus, a son or a grandson of the Alexandrian apostate Tiberius Julius Alexander, consul in 117 (?)" . (The Jews Under Roman Rule By E. Mary Smallwood) . Smallwood named the above as having "partly Jewish ancestry" . Fine with me .

For the third or forth or 11 times - The consul of 116 was of Jewish origin, that is his genealogy no matter what . If you have a source that says otherwise - Pleace name him . Let us listen to scohlars like Ilan and another one to conclude "The decendants of Alexander, son of Herod and Marriamme, and Glaphyra, daugther of Archelaus of Cappadocia . Those alive around 80 include : 1. Julius Alexander, son of Tigranes of Armenia Major (a grandson of Alexander and Glaphyra)... in 72 (he became) king of Cetis...If OGIS 544 is to belived, Alexander later entered the senate, probably under Trajan, reached the suffect consulship (so now we have a grandson of a Jew who became consul) . "Alexander had two sons : 1. Gaius Julius Alexander Berenicianus (a foot note - ...Halfmann...thinks he was perhaps a descendant of Berenice and Marcus Julius Alexander...), who was suffect consul in 116 and proconsul of Asia in 132/3... So far for his genealogy . The father was a grandson of a Jew or the son (cos. suff. 116) "perhaps" a Jew Now for their religion, I must say that I thougt that the 116 was just another helenic prince but now - "This family had apperently let its ties to Judaism lapse but the names Alexander gave his sons indicate that his family connections were not wholly broken . Some vestigial connections with Judaism cannot therefore be ruled out..." (Josephus and Judaean Politics By Seth Schwartz) . With regards to such things I tend to think with open mind . Edit : Period .

"The year was 63 B.C. when General Pompey...broke throhgh. His three centuriones, Faustus, Furius And Fabius, scaled the walls and set the great city on fire. To make even further insult to the jews, they did this on the sabbath, while the Jews rested, and over 12,000 Jews killed" (on one single day) . (The Jerusalem Conspiracy By Bill Selkirk and many more) . Such grace !

Thanks . I am looking for a link for the 13 episodes of the History channel "Ancient Rome - The Rise and fall of an empire" (not the BBC series) .

December 3rd 1621 - Galileo invents telescope so people could peek eachother exactly as David has done with Bathsheva 2,993 years ago

Well, there is no denying Caesar's gratuitous overkill but look at the source of the "claimed point of contention". The Senate, Marcus Porcius Cato and the rest. Should we not ingest the proverbial grain of salt? I'd like to know what made other Roman warlords such sweethearts. Caesar was not alone in practicing "gratuitous overkill". When was the last time ypu checked on Cn Pompeius Magnus cursus honorum? It mirrored CJ Caesar's (extraordinary proconsulates, CJ in Gaul and Cn in Hispania) with the significant additional advantage that Pompeius was at Rome and that he had enjoyed extraordinary magistratures with irrestricted Imperium (Dictator-like). The Civil War that began in 49 BC was not between "Populares" and "Repuiblicans"; Pompeius and his legates were no more republican than Caesar. It was just a final fight between fellow usurpers for their share of the booty. Just months before, they were all partners and cronies from the same "triumvirial" faction. Had not CJ Caesar crossed the Rubicon and won, Pompeiud and co. would have had irrestrict power over the entire Roman republic in any dictatorship-like way; no question about that; and of course, CJ Caesar's life wouldn't be worth a denarius. Don't start another war here.... The aristocratic worms are preparing an assault ! Crossing the Rubicon.. aechhach... was the greatest crime.... acheaeach... in the history of Rome...(vomiting). Peace and love, peace and love

Thanks for your tips Neph. and dok.

Not too long. Often it took a lot of time for a consul to became a proconsul. But as the proconsulate of Asia was the high point of a senatorial career (together with Africa) it was not given to someone as the first province. He might have been proconsul somewhere else before 132. I find the dates more interesting because in both 116 and 132/3 there were large Jewish rebellions under way. Agreed . Yes, as I have said, the coincidence for a consul of Jewish origin in 116 is amazing because of the Jewish revolt of the years 115-117 . Now You came with another one - A proconsulate in 132/3 - exacetly at the begining of the Bar Cochba revolt . Who knows what were the motives of Traianus and Hadrianus . A puzzle !

Found this - By the end of the third century - Theodotos (a palatinus) Aurelius Basileides from Sardis (a procurator) Paulus from Sardis (a comes !) Julianus (a palatinus, brother of a rabbi named Paregorius) Gelasius from Sepporis (a comes !) Iosses Maximinus Pannonius (principalis, he was high synagogue official) Cosmius (officer) Alexander (a prostates) 400 CE - Lectorius was elevated to the rank of praeses of the Balaeric islands In 418 - Theodore and Caecilianus held the military title of defensor civitatis There is more

Yes. In about 4,500,000,000 years, we should prepare, bought some conserves

Had his tonsils removed . Now, knowing that, the world looks prettier . Btw, what is going on with him, where is he, what he is doing ?