Jimbow

There's a lot of contention over the site of the Varus Disaster. Teutoberger Wald near Detmold has been long held to be the location. But, Kalkriese has become another hot favourite, as proposed by Major Tony Clunn, but hotly contested by Dan Peterson. The RAT forums have been overheating a bit including posts from the above two. RAT Kalkriese For my opinion on tunic colours, see it here, it could be any or one of them so far as I'm concerned: Oh so unfashionable me! Jim.

I've read a similar thread before, and, actually, the mortality rate is thought to have been very low. It had something to do with being transported to medical facilities, which in itself caused more stress on the body and inhibited the healing process. There are cases of First World War soldiers refusing treatment aside from what they received in the field, and healing, as opposed to their comrades who had to endure a long and painful journey to the hospital. At the hospital, infections were a problem in themselves, whereas remaining in fresh open air ironically reduced the risk of infection. Surgeons were also quite skilled, supposedly. Channel 4 Rome surgeons This is a short link. Ancient remedies are also pretty potent, forming the basis for many modern synthetic remedies: Aloe Vera I'll see if I can find the webpage that had a report about the new theory of low mortality rates.

9 .A.D. in Germany, to answer the following questions: a: Where was the site of the Varus disaster? b: What colours did the legions actually wear? Two of the most flippin' argued questions answered in one fell swoop Jim.

Bring back Cromwell. We had a Republic once, we can have it again

Ah, PrimusPilus, are you in the USA? If so, I think I see why you hate the New-Age-While-Wearing-Burberry-Nazis so much. You've got good points. I think the points Scaevola also makes are revealing, especially the use of rigid formations. Never thought of that before. I think I'll be getting that book too. Anyways, I got bumped out of the Name Game (flippin' cheat so what do I know?

This book may be of interest: 'Acts of War' by Richard Holmes. Description at Amazon: Acts of War

Of course there were; Caligula being one of the best examples. And you know how? Besides, you assume that these days the majority of people think soldiers are bad. No, many recognise and try to treat with the knowledge that there is a difference between the conscious and often more powerful subconscious, which is why I'm off to for hypnotherapy tomorrow to quit smoking after 21 years. A brain is a brain, 10 years old, or 2000 years old. Along with, in ancient times, the brutalisation within society comes the child rape, sexual abuse, and physical abuse and torture, which must have affected the individual. Or, do you think these are character building and acceptable? Again, it could be said Caligula was a victim of many of these things, look at his family history, and look at the psychopathic monster he turned into. It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to put yourself into the shoes of a child who lost so much and in turn had so much. Especially with an indulgent uncle who is sometimes romanticised as not being that bad, Tiberius. Power corrupts, but it's for a reason, not divine intervention. I think the potential psychological research of the ancients is fascinating, and could probably provide more of a link between them and us than any other field of study could. They were as human as we are now. I agree, attitudes and levels of disgust were very likely (if not definitely) different, but I think nostalgia can be a very dangerous thing. It's usually false. I imagine the more the legionaries had to gut someone they dealt with it in their own way. But, I really believe it had an effect. How many 'modern' soldiers have had no exposure to 'psycho-babble' but have had post-traumatic stress'? Many. A good proportion of the survivors of Rouke's Drift committed suicide, and they had no access to the so-called psycho-babble. Generally, professionals these days deal with the effects of someone else doing something to someone else, and they try to fix it. You can say that of many soldiers also. That brings to mind the question; did Roman soldiers also try to prevent and fix bad occurences, which helped balance the really awful things they were expected to do at times? Let's face it, Rome didn't have half the atrocities that we have seen in the last century. I don't know the answer, but I wouldn't expect an historian to give an accurate answer either. I would trust a psycologist or psychiatrist to give a more accurate answer. 'The Madness of King George' was brilliant. Here was a king who seemed to be potty. But, once his symptoms had been examined, historically and through research, it was "Aha! That's why!" Don't you find that interesting?

Within context of the original question, though, on an average annual basis Stalin and Mao pretty (tentatively) much killed the same amount of people, depending on which figures are used. Mao: between 0.69 million, and 1.72 million a year. Stalin: between 0.69 million, and 2.41 million a year. However you look at the figures for Hitler, he pretty much surpasses them both by a long way (though how do you compare one murderous evil psycopath to another?) : Between 1.67 and 4.16 million a year (20 or 50 million people 1933-45) Between 2.86 and 7.14 million a year (20 or 50 million people 1938-45) To me, it just makes me feel even more strongly against a single person having complete rule over any nation. Forget the abstract legal technicalities of their system of government, all of the above three held practical absolute power and autocracy. It makes me question whether intelligence levels have also dropped over the centuries, considering the authority the Roman emperors held, thinking of Marcus Aurelius and Vespasian in particular. I don't think Caligula or Caracalla even factor into the topic. Then again, if they had the communications and transportation capabilities of the 20th C. who knows? I dare say a statistical mathematician somewhere could paint a different picture. And we have no statistics for slaves. Jiim.

By which one? The daffodil yellow, or the tea towel? Looks a bit like an ancient Captain Scarlet lineup. "Centurio Coccinus". "Thiiissss iiiiiiss the voice of the Paaarthiaaaaaannnssss."

Here's another site with pretty good lists of legions and their respective histories, in case you still need them: The Roman legions Jim.

A butt-ugly amateur legionary (me) goes on fashion parade with the help of Photoshop, to help me visualise the often discussed topic. Inspired by the current RAT topic of scutum colour and a distraction from global death tolls. Military fashion parade Jim.

Forgetting fascism, I had a quick search for figures from the whole of the 20th Century. That really is depressing. Average world population: 3,400,000,000 Total deaths caused by war, rebellion, civil war and genocide/democide: Take your pick between 167,000,000 and 258,000,000. D T McBride In Rwanda in 1994, pop. 8.1 million, death toll from genocide on Tutsis was 800,000. And let's not forget Cambodia under Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge (est. 21% of the population over 4 years). The list goes on: raw figures And; 30 Worst Atrocities of the 20th Century Jim I'm off to scutum and tunic colours.

Doing the maths got my brain into gear on a Saturday morning. But there are those who compare the Romans as being the original fascist state. I know National Socialism was not Fascism, but ....... you know. For me, it showed the Romans, on average, were pussycats to what others are possible of in very recent history, be it Nazis, Fascists, Communists, etc, etc. However, If you took an individual like Caesar in Gaul, the comparison could likely be different. That would probably be a better comparison to make. 1 million killed over 9 years. That would mean around 10,350,000 at 1930 population stats, making 1,150,000 killed per annum. Still around one quarter of the deaths attributed to Hitler. I'm feeling a bit ghoulish now, and it's all rather depressing. I think I'd rather debate tunic and scutum colours in the Roman army. Jim.

Here are links to historical population estimates to help you out: Historical Estimates of World Population Historical Estimates of World Population 2 Historicl Human Populations As Rome went from somewhere around 753 BCE to 850 CE (correct me if I'm wrong) I think you can take the average estimate at 1 CE, which seems to be around 100,000,000. The problem is different estimates put it at 300,000,000. Let's say 200,000,000 then. As Hitler was in power, initially as Chancellor, from 1933 to 1945 (1948 according to 'Hellboy', but I don't trust that data ) I think it's safe to use the average population of 1930 at 2,070,000,000. So, at 50 million deaths, Hitler's actions caused the deaths of 2.42% of the world's population. As a yearly average, that makes it 4,166,667 per year. Caesar and others seem to have been rather good at genocide also, so it would need to include those deaths. This is a link to the Body Count of the Roman Era. The author agrees all figures are debatable, and Gibbon is used heavily. It says the body count is 8,665,000. averaged over 603 years, this makes the average annual body count to be 14,370 deaths. Put that against the 200,000,000 average population, you have 0.00007185% per year. I'm not feeling too well, so my maths could be up the spout. As an annual average death toll though, I reckon it to be: Hitler and the Nazis; 4,166,667 pa Rome 753 BCE to 850 CE; 14,370 pa The population of 1930 CE was 10.35 times that of 1 CE. The average death toll was 289.96 times greater per annum, without population taken into account. I make it to be 28.02 times greater on average taking population numbers into account. So, Hitler killed over 28 times more people than the Romans. No contest, and rather grim considering the events and death tolls from comparable situations of the last 100 years, when we are supposed to be more 'advanced' than Rome. However, advances in medicine have likely saved a lot more lives, so it may be interesting to compare it with general mortality rates as well. Jim. Correct me, expecially as I put the end of the Roman era at 850 CE, and the data is likely incorrect. Others may want to work it out to 600 CE with different data. And, my maths are awful, so I don't mind being slapped down with major corrections, I'd prefer to know the real figures.

Not mercenaries as such, just bodyguards, security specialists and consultants (ahem ) Roughly 150,000 of them. In fact, so many they outnumber any coalition force aside from the US. Security Companies Doing Business in Iraq Article But I guess you could call hired commandos from Chile 'auxilia'? Actually, technically, no. They're privately hired, not government hired. Oh, there are/were also ex-secret police from the South African apartheid days there. Lovely Chilean commandos

Could targeting the Emperor for conversion to Christianity have had anything to do with it? Courts have even changed their national language when a king has made a spelling mistake. If an Emperor were to become christian, it's not unfeasible that the most influential people of the Empire would also further the cause, and given they influenced and made legislation, well..... If I were correct, the real question is did Christianity succeed through faith, or sycophancy?

Interestingly (to me anyway , is there a comparison between hundreds of years of Roman history, and a few dozen years of British history? Cromwell as Caesar with a bit of Octavian? Okay, veeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrryyyy tenuous. Kingdom to Republic to Dictatorship to Representative Monarchical Empire (if that makes any sense)? Not particularly tied to the thread, but an indication of how Rome could go in a relatively more modern age. Republic 1 Republic 2 Charles II

Well there you go, thenks Ursus The author of the slavery idea was right. Maybe slaves were just cheaper to maintain

A theory I once read made me smile. The Roman Empire, and others, were highly dependant on slavery to drive their industry and economy. The problem with this is that it can actually lead to a very poor development of technology. Why would there be a need to invent machines when you can just get a bunch of slaves to do it? The theorist also believed that the Romans were highly inventive, and we all know were great engineers. He actually stated that, given the right circumstances (without slaves), the Romans could have invented the steam engine. If this theory were correct, we would maybe have had no Industrial Revolution, and could still be an agrarian society dependant on forced labour to keep the economy going. In his book

Pasta was definitely popular during Tudor times, Henry VIII scoffing loads of the stuff. Let's face it, it's one of the easiest foodstuffs to make. Apparently you can get it at the Hampton Court Palace kitchen restaurant. Going back to tartan, the article linked to in the original post also points out: "Brian Wilton said the oldest tartan authenticated was found in China 500 years before the time of Tutankhanum." Guess it only goes to show it's true that fashion is regurgitated time and time again.

Talking about the 13th Warrior, has anyone read the book it's based on by Michael Crichton, 'Eaters of the Dead'? It's fascinating, and it's actually an interpretation of Beowulf (Buliwyf, the Grendel, etc). Also, Antonio Banderas' character, Ahmed Ibn Fahdlan, actually existed for real (the first part before he meets the vikings is based on a manuscript dated to 922 AD), and Crichton just married the real with the myth. I really like that film, and I highly recommend the book, especially for Crichton's notes at the end.

It's due out later this year (longer than 6 months, sorry). One of the producers it's headed up by is the same producer who produced Band of Brothers, so I think we can expect a very high quality show. It basically follows the lives and fortunes of two soldiers fighting for Caesar, and I believe it spans most parts of the Empire, with the triumvirate, etc. An epic, and I'm really looking forward to it. Rome BBC HBO

There's a PDF file here, which may be of some use. Legion Locations

Here's an Amazon link to another book which may be of interest: Alex Croom Supposed to be very good and informative, with illustrations. However, it covers many aspects of clothing and may not have specific info about centurions.