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Adrianople. The Emperor is slain in battle and two-thirds of the eastern army is lost in a single day! The East now has no defences and they are at the mercy of the barbarians, who are raping the countrside, burning cities to the ground, enslaving Romans, looting their properties, and destroying the faith of Roman subjects in their government to protect them. It doesn't get much worse.

The Romans may not have practised racial discrimination but they did practise cultural discrimination. Any culture that was not Greco-Roman was viewed as inferior and was held in contempt, especially cultures or groups of people who didn

Egyptians weren't black. I've been to the Egyptian Museum in Egypt and was shown two large statues of a Pharoah and his wife sitting by side. The guide pointed out that the womans skin was very fair and the mans was quite dark. He explained that this was because the woman stayed mostly indoors while the men spent most of their time outside. The Egyptian sun is harsh and I assure you that if any European spent most of their time witout a shirt in the Egyptian sun they will also have dark skin. The fact that the women had such fair skin (and their features, shape of face, hair type, etc.) is obvious proof that they weren't 'black' which eradicates some of the modern myths regarding Egyptians.

I've never seen a Roman sculpture or a mosaic of a black person. And I've never heard of any reference to black Romans (and by 'Romans', I'm refering to Italians) in ancient sources.

That's rubbish. Have you looked at Roman sculptures, busts, and mosaics? They all depict whites. And anyway, Greece is closer to Italy than Africa is. The Greeks don't mention a race of dark skinned Africans living in Italy! What evidence does this Professor have? And like I said, the busts of Roman Emperors depict faces that are classicaly European.

About the hair colour of the Romans and Italians...Augustus had blonde hair and didn't Sulla also? I don't believe that the Romans could have come from the Moors....Romans are Whites for crying out loud! The Sicilians are darker because they were invaded by the Arabs in the Dark Ages and some mixing did occur. But if you look at the statues of the Romans, they are classicaly European, and I believe they were mostly descendants of the Greeks. Their features seem very refined and I think the idea that they are descended from Moors is plain rubbish. Look how close Epirus (Albania) was to Italy? Albanians are still flocking over in droves, so I think in the past it would have also been a logical route because of the short distance.

Actually, I think it was to a large part due to the pathetic and careless emperors of the late empire. I mean, Honorius basically did nothing to prevent Alaric from entering Italy and Valentinian had his most capable military leader (Aetius) killed. So for me, it was down to extremely poor and careless leadership that led to the fall. I believe that an able and brave emperor could have saved the West.

Basically it's like this: the Roman supporters believe that their side will win and the Han supporters believe theirs will win. Carpe Jugulum, a Roman legionary served in the army for 25 years and trained every (newer recruits twice per day) day with weapons that were double the weight of the normal weapons. They were trained by gladiator trainers and were extremely fit, able to march long distances rapidly with heavy loads. They also trained to sprint in full armour and to cross rivers in full gear. To simply say that "in the open on a field, infantry against infatry the chinese would win" is absurd. How do you know they will win?

When Romulus Augustulus abdicated in the West, he stated that the empire no longer required two emperors and that the eastern emperor could claim the west and that Odoacer(the barbarian ruling Italy at the time) be made Patrician. Augutulus then had his imperial ornaments (diadem, etc.) sent to the eastern emperor. Therefore the Eastern Empire could legally lay claim to the western provinces since the imperial power of the West was transferred to Zeno. Here

What was the motivation for adopting the spatha in the later empire and why did they wear it on the left hip? And does anyone know roughly at which year they started using the spatha? Thanks.

I agree with you on Nero and Caligula, but I admit I never knew that Caligula was such a tyrant to the population as a whole. Do you know of anything else that he did? How about the most oppressive taxes (and the means to obtain them)? I've heard that in the later empire taxes were so bad that many Roman citizens chose to rather become exiles and abandon their property. Apparently when Caracalla was in one of the eastern provinces (I think Syria) he had a few thousand people from a city killed, because some of them 'insulted his dignity'. I don't think anyone ever insulted him again...

I agree with you 100% Fatboy, that's why I also refer to them as the Byzantine Empire. Culturally the Byzantines differed to the original Romans, but I was emphasizing the legal aspect of them being Roman and not the cultural aspect.

But yet the Turks regarded them as Romans.

Hi Who do you think is THE most despotic Roman Emperor ever? And when I say 'despotic' I don't mean acts like killing family members or enemies etc, I mean towards the population of the Empire as a whole. So which emperor was the harshest and cruelest towrds the citizens and under who's reign would you say that the Romans suffered the most because of the emperor?

Let's just remember that the term 'Byzantine' is a modern one. The Byzantines refered to themselves as Romans and were known to the rest of the world as 'the Romans'. And also from a legal perspective, the Eastern Roman Empire was never fully extinguished till 1453, so I believe that all the rulers till the fall of the Eastern Empire where the legitimate and legal heirs to Rome. For sure the culture and mentality had changed to that of the original Romans, but I guess that's natural when the Eatern Empire ended almost 1000 years after the West! So even though the language and culture changed (a logical evolution considering the area), I don't think that changed the fact that it was still legally Roman. And from what I have read it seems that the Byzantine Empire didn't enter the Dark Ages when Europe did. Apparently the Byzantines were considered by the Crusaders as 'effiminate' because most of them could read and write and used a knife and fork to eat their food. So I believe that for the most part, they never entered into the Dark Ages like Europe and managed to preserve civilization whilst Europe was influenced by the barbarian savages who had conquered it, and which (ironically) took almost 1000 years to recover from.

Hi I think the original topic ended quite sourly and I would just like to create a better end to the topic. Both empires were EXTREMELY powerful and motivated and whichever army won the battle wouldn't really win.... because both armies would probably fight to the very end and basically annihilate each others army. So the 'winning' sides finest army will pretty much be destroyed. So in the end....it's a DRAW

If things continue as they are with the current levels of pollution, the monuments are all eventually just going to erode away.

I would emphasize the importance of the protection of the private property of all Roman citizens and that in no way should the army or the government be able to arbitrarily confiscate the property of a citizen and that this should be made into law and codified. I would recommend that all Roman citizens from the Italian peninsula upon reaching 18 years of age be compelled to serve in the military for at least one or two years. They would however only receive a minimum wage. That the costs and the amount of animals to be used in the public games should be regulated and limited, so that the newly elected Consuls and other public figures cannot abuse their wealth in this way to gain the support of the plebians. That money be made available and that an academy be created to make advances in medication and the study of the human body. That the amount of guards in the cities be increased, especially in Rome and that distubers of the public peace and rioters receive the highest punishment possible.

I wish it was possible to use units and armies from the late empire. How about a late empire expansion where you can play as the Huns, Goths, Vandals and the very different Roman army of the late empire. Imagine getting to use the Roman cataphract heavt cavalry? Does anyone know if any 'Late Empire' mods exist?

The problem I have with the returning of artifacts is 'where does it end?' And wouldn't the further transporting of these artifacts just damage them further? I say, leave things as they are, as long as the governments keeping the artifacts takes good care of them.

I've heard that there have been proposals to restore the Colloseum but that apparently many people oppose the idea. Many consider the Colloseum in it's semi-ruined state as being the symbol of modern Rome and are worried that if it's completely restored it will lose most of it's character. Personally, I would love to see a complete restoration of the Colloseum. But if it's to be restored, it must be done properly, with the authentic materials such as the correct type of marble etc. The costs would most likely be huge, but I believe that the restoration would mostly be funded by private companies and not the government. So the main problems would probably be the costs, both labour and materials. But with cranes and diamond cutting discs, the process of mining, transporting and fitting the marble shouldn't be too difficult.

Hi Silentium Could you please translate that for us? "Quod non fecerunt barbari Barberini fecerunt" Thanks

I would just like to spend some time walking through Rome, especially to admire the magnificent architecture. I would also like to go see the temples, a forum, etc and see what the Imperial palace looked like. I would probaly get to see some Praetorian Guards strutting menacingly around the streets. I would also like to go see a race at the Circus and quickly watch a gladiatorial fight at the (gasp!) Coliseum. I would be interested to hear how the people spoke Latin and also to see how the Romans looked and if they differed (visually) from central Italians. I would also like the oppurtunity to see a Legionary but that would probably be unlikely in Rome.

http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~madsb/home/war/vegetius/ I thought some of you might be interested in this. It's an online version of the military manual written by Vegetius during the late Empire. It's very short and really interesting. It really describes how very different and inferior the army was in this period. Some soldiers apparently refused to wear their armour, except their shield (even in battle!). Any comments?

Hi TMPikachu The Eastern Roman Empire only fell in 1453. The term