Germanicus

Check out his website seems he did okay out of it - hell, where do I sign up for humiliation ?

I think he was wearing the red boots of the Alban kings by then. I certainly don't think he was a tyrant, and like you said Phil - a very human character. Bit of a Polymath really.

It's interesting isn't it that Tacitus and Suetonius were probably friends, and read each others work. I wonder if Tacitus thought Suetonius was full of it ? Yeah, I love reading him too, he's such a bitch.

Yes, it was highly effective - but still lost plenty of battles. With regard to Caesar, there's every chance Plutarch inflated the figures, but yes, I'm sure he killed and enslaved plenty. That's kind of the point though - they did it under Caesar, the Roman armys effectiveness was directly linked to the effectiveness of it's leaders.

It's great, just finished the first season, on to number 2.

I've been watching DVDs of the HBO Deadwood series - I love it - anyone else like it ?

That 'she bang' guy made heaps of cash apparently - you know he released it as a single ?

No, it was unprecedented. Call me crazy O Valerius - but when a guy becomes Dictator for life - I'd call the state a Dictatorship. It doesn't really matter if the Dictator still calls it a Republic.

Have you seen him on the late night "Advanced Hair" commercials ?

It was a Dictatorship before a principate - and I no one thinks the assasins "restored the republic". The premise of the thread is that when Caesar became dictator for life, the republic was shattered, and it asks - was it Catos stubborn refusal to compromise that let things get to that point.

I think if the military personell were not paid for two years and denied their retirment pensions after serving their country in conflict - there could be serious repercussions. Thats my point right there, so thanks - Marius was the cause, NOT the army he used. I do not believe the rank and file of the Roman Army once professionalised wanted to overthrow the government. They wanted the rewards they were promised, and as the state didn't provide - turned to their leaders. Like I said, sure there's a link - but a link that could have been avoided while still having a professional army.

So you believe the Republic exsisted up to Octavians victory at Actium ?

Linked certainly, but not a cause in itself as such. I wouldn't call it a disaster, quite the opposite as the reforms bought about Roman arms superiority for at least the next 3-400 years. A disaster for the republic ? That was the armies fault in the same way that it's the guns fault when someone gets shot and without the reforms we have no way of knowing how things would have gone otherwise against the Cimbri and Tuetones. Where would the men have come from after those crushing defeats like Arusio ? The proffessional Army is only seen as disaster for the Republic because the state neglected to take care of it's soldiers,(mistake when they are without property or wealth) and individual men used this to bring about realisation of their own interests. Proffessional armies exsist in modern states.....and yet no problem......because the state takes care of them.

Yes I know having read the thread. There seemed to be a side comming in though in relation to husbands being cuckolded, discretion etc, my only point was that there were Roman patrician women who had affairs and were as equally open about it as Caesar. Not a good idea for Julia though I agree, although perhaps she didn't realise the kind of man her father was. As to her promiscuity - maybe she was, maybe she wasn't. Actual evidence though only suggests a lover or perhaps a few.

Thanks, with regard to Pliny - I am familiar with the letter but didn't interpret it as evidence of massive rates of conversion. His description of it in that letter as being a "degenerate sort of cult carried to extravegant lengths" along with his assertion that it could be "checked and directed to better ends" suggested to me that it had not yet become such a problem. It would be good to know what Tacitus and Pliny meant by "multitude".

Could you please post the quotes for these ? I can remember Pliny saying nothing like this ?

You mentioned Servilia before - wasn't she mistress to Caesar when married to Decimus Junius Silanus (Consul 62 BC) ? We don't know if it was her only affair, but certainly adultery, and certainly known about - but she didn't suffer ill effects did she ? An aristocrat to boot.