sylla

... exactly the point made by Jared Diamond in his book 'Collapse' which explored environmental reasons for the extinction of societies as diverse as the Easter Islanders and Greenland Vikings. The Romans get a mention too, but he sees the Dark Age as more of a hiatus than a genuine collapse. Nope. First of all, that is absolutely unfair to the superb methodology used by Prof. Diamond

Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam.

Nope, this is science; the proof is still far from being "in". It simply is not "out" yet. What Dr Russell said is that he was 100% confident that the proof will eventually be "in"; now, all what is required is some patience to see if: - the analysis of the measurable variables first, - the independent replicable confirmation by other researchers later, - and finally the ponderation of alternative explanations... ... will eventually prove that his a priori qualitative assessment of the match was right. Here's a new video which includes a much more thorough explanation by Dr. Russell as to why he believes this will prove out to be a portraiture of a young Nero. He touches on much of what's been discussed in this thread. It's worth the 3+ minute viewing. J Thanks for all your efforts, Jason. This is a beautiful video; however, the evidence shown there is fundamentally the same already published by the same researchers, so the analysis remains fundamentally unchanged. All along this thread we have a heavy publication bias, ie. using almost exclusively positive reports, even if in fact some of them are actually inconclusive. I think this case is analogous to the story of the purported French bust of Caesar.

O blithe little soul, thou, flitting away, Guest and comrade of this my clay, Whither now goest thou, to what place Bare and ghastly and without grace? Nor, as thy wont was, joke and play. (Translated by A. O'Brien-Moore). The main problem is of course the original source: the Historia Augusta ("Aelius Spartianus") is entirely unreliable, even for Hadrian.

PLA boys would have a rough day, properly devastating retaliation would be immediate; end of the story.

Offending post deleted

That seems to be an anachronic statement; arguably, for the people of the time (from any side) that's exactly what it was.

It seems like open season for treasure hunting.

Nice hypothesis; the only way to understand "causes" and "motivations" would then be utterly avoiding evidence. Impollute ignorance would then be the only way to let imagination free. Have you any evidence backing such hypothesis? In any case, you must admit I'm hardly the only one here worried for evidence as a support of our own assertions.

It seems that Southern Africa megafauna survived quite well: giraffes, rhinos, elephants, hippos, et alia. It's only recent homo sapiens who Is threatening these animals. From Alan Wiesman, "The World without Us" on why African large mammals survived: "...humans and megafauna evolved together. Unlike unsuspecting American, Australian,...herbivores who had no inkling of how dangerous we were when unexpectedly arrived. African animals had the chance to adjust as our presence increased." Then, of course, came the Romans of recent history. Usus autem sum, ne in aliquo fallam carissimam mihi familiaritatem tuam, praecipue libris ex bibliotheca Ulpia, aetate mea thermis Diocletianis, et item ex domo Tiberiana, usus etiam [ex] regestis scribarum porticus porphyreticae, actis etiam senatus ac populi. 2 et quoniam me ad colligenda talis viri gesta ephemeris Turduli Gallicani plurimum invit, viri honestissimi ac sincerissimi, beneficium amici senis tacere non debui. 3 Cn. Pompeium, tribus fulgentem triumphis belli piratici, belli Sertoriani, belli Mithridatici multarumque rerum gestarum maiestate sublimem, quis tandem nosset, nisi eum Marcus Tullius et Titus Livius in litteras rettulissent? 4 Publ<i>um Scipionem Afric<an>um, immo Scipiones omnes, seu Lucios seu Nasicas, nonne tenebrae possiderent ac tegerent, nisi commendatores eorum historici nobiles atque ignobiles extitissent? 5 longum est omnia persequi, quae ad exemplum huiusce modi etiam nobis tacentibus usurpanda sunt. 6 illud tantum contestatum volo me et rem scripsisse, quam, si quis voluerit, honestius eloquio celsiore demonstret, et mihi quidem id animi fuit, 6 <ut> non Sallustios, Livios, Tacito<s>, Trogos atque omnes disertissimos imitarer viros in vita principum et temporibus disserendis, sed Marium Maximum, Suetonium Tranquillum, Fabium Marcellinum, Gargilium Martialem, Iulium Capitolinum, Aelium Lampridium ceterosque, qui haec et talia non tam diserte quam vere memoriae tradiderunt. 8 sum enim unus ex curiosis, quod infi[ni]t<i>as ire non possum, ince<n>dentibus vobis, qui, cum multa sciatis, scire multo plura cupitis. 9 et ne diutius ea, quae ad meum consilium pertinent, loquar, magnum et praeclarum principem et qualem historia nostra non novit, arripiam.

The above mentioned comparison of native Americans and Romans is probably as anachronical as it's possible within UNRV, ie. like 10,000 BC vs the Roman Era; in any case, the extinction of the Megafauna was a universal phenomenon out of Eastern / Southern Africa (ie, including therefore the whole future Roman world around 10,000 BC too). Evidence and experience overwhelmingly show that complex civilizations (as the Romans) have overhunted far more (exponentially in fact) than pre-agrarian populations (eg, some Barbarians) for a number of reasons.

Latium antiquum a Tiberi Cerceios servatum est m. p. L longitudine: tam tenues primordio imperi fuere radices. colonis saepe mutatis tenuere alii aliis temporibus, Aborigenes, Pelasgi, Arcades, Siculi, Aurunci, Rutuli et ultra Cerceios Volsci, Osci, Ausones, unde nomen Lati processit ad Lirim amnem. in principio est Ostia colonia ab Romano rege deducta, oppidum Laurentum, lucus Iovis Indigetis, amnis Numicius, Ardea a Dana

Some traits of modern environmentalism might have been anachronically attributed to Themistius; who knows? In any case, Themistius was an eclectic Aristotelian and some of these ideas can be found among other philosophers, at least since Plato, and maybe even from the presocratics.

The auction for this item was to have taken place on 10/28. I spent some time this morning on Bonham's site and while many items on this day were sold, there was still only the estimate price for the Caracalla bust on the webpage. I take this to mean that it wasn't, in fact, sold. Maybe we should take donations from the community and purchase it ourselves? Each participating UNRV community member can have it for one week. We'll take it around our hometowns and show it off like champion NHLers do with the Stanley Cup. :-) It'll look mighty nice on my Thanksgiving Day table. J Agreed, but the same as the Arch in Djemilla (and irrespectively of lighting) it would still look downright intimidating.

Latium antiquum a Tiberi Cerceios servatum est m. p. L longitudine: tam tenues primordio imperi fuere radices. colonis saepe mutatis tenuere alii aliis temporibus, Aborigenes, Pelasgi, Arcades, Siculi, Aurunci, Rutuli et ultra Cerceios Volsci, Osci, Ausones, unde nomen Lati processit ad Lirim amnem. in principio est Ostia colonia ab Romano rege deducta, oppidum Laurentum, lucus Iovis Indigetis, amnis Numicius, Ardea a Dana

I believe the Science is a measurement to account for the curvature of the Earth. I'm not saying it's necessarily right, but I think your simple solution is overly simplistic. Latium antiquum a Tiberi Cerceios servatum est m. p. L longitudine: tam tenues primordio imperi fuere radices. colonis saepe mutatis tenuere alii aliis temporibus, Aborigenes, Pelasgi, Arcades, Siculi, Aurunci, Rutuli et ultra Cerceios Volsci, Osci, Ausones, unde nomen Lati processit ad Lirim amnem. in principio est Ostia colonia ab Romano rege deducta, oppidum Laurentum, lucus Iovis Indigetis, amnis Numicius, Ardea a Dana

I'm sure it has something to do with the lighting of this picture, but the Arch looks downright intimidating... According to Cassius Dio (as quoted by PP) that's the way it should be.

Maybe he foresaw the disunity in the Empire which was to become very problematic a decade or two later, and this was his attempt to address it. Later emperors used religion to this purpose. An interesting point, considering Caracalla had all the hallmarks of a warrior-emperor. Definitely a soldiers man. Somewhat ironic then a Roman soldier killed him on campaign. The problem with individuals in that sort of powerful position is that if they become focused on military activity (as Caracalla clearly wanted to) it tends to be at the expense of everything else. Now of course he did instigate civic improvements. As history shows, emperors were usually a tad cynical about that, as public benificence was expected of a wealthy ruler (and interestingly, would remain a characteristic of Italian culture even as late as the Renaissance). Caracalla may have been a very hard-nosed individual (am I being too generous?) but he wasn't stupid. Keep the Romans sweet. Unfortunately, his ideas of how to do that would have also included military glory and triumphs to warm the Roman heart. It remains unlikely he would have conquered Parthia, which as a region showed considerable resilience over the centuries in resisting Roman aggression, and he he not been assassinated you have to ask whether his reign was going to be remembered fondly even with his efforts to appear a beneficent ruler on the home front. Latium antiquum a Tiberi Cerceios servatum est m. p. L longitudine: tam tenues primordio imperi fuere radices. colonis saepe mutatis tenuere alii aliis temporibus, Aborigenes, Pelasgi, Arcades, Siculi, Aurunci, Rutuli et ultra Cerceios Volsci, Osci, Ausones, unde nomen Lati processit ad Lirim amnem. in principio est Ostia colonia ab Romano rege deducta, oppidum Laurentum, lucus Iovis Indigetis, amnis Numicius, Ardea a Dana

In more than one way, Themistius seems to have been aside from the regular Roman tradition.

...another mildly insulting remark which you probably wouldn't have said had you been in the same room together. Try to keep it civil and relevant. Granted; what about this one? Frankly, I find it little more than "mildly"...

Maybe he foresaw the disunity in the Empire which was to become very problematic a decade or two later, and this was his attempt to address it. Later emperors used religion to this purpose. Antoninus himself mentioned in an edict a religious goal, specifically increasing the number of worshippers of the Roman gods. Needless to say, that is hardly convincing; why couldn

Latium antiquum a Tiberi Cerceios servatum est m. p. L longitudine: tam tenues primordio imperi fuere radices. colonis saepe mutatis tenuere alii aliis temporibus, Aborigenes, Pelasgi, Arcades, Siculi, Aurunci, Rutuli et ultra Cerceios Volsci, Osci, Ausones, unde nomen Lati processit ad Lirim amnem. in principio est Ostia colonia ab Romano rege deducta, oppidum Laurentum, lucus Iovis Indigetis, amnis Numicius, Ardea a Dana

A fascinating issue; would you be kind enough for posting any link to your souces here? Thanks in advance.

I was talking just about evidence, not post-historic analysis. If you (or anyone else) have any evidence that the Saxon Shore ever failed (and if anyone cares about it) this would be a wonderful time for showing it.