Formosus Viriustus

Yet another curious passage from Tacitus' Annals, concerning slaves. Annals, III, 36, 1 ''Next was exposed an abuse, hitherto the subject of many a whispered complaint. The vilest wretches used a growing freedom in exciting insult and obloquy against respectable citizens, and escaped punishment by clasping some statue of the emperor. The very freedman or slave was often an actual terror to his patron or master whom he would menace by word and gesture.'' http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/a03030.htm Can I conclude that at least Tacitus paints a very confusing and contradictory picture of slaves ? On the one hand they could be tortured just for being witnesses in a court case, on the other hand they were able to terrorize their masters witn impunity ? Formosus

Nephele posted this link in the 'Emperor's Entourage' thread (Rom Hum). Roman Antiquities: Or an Account of Manners and Customs of the Romans Besides an exhaustive list of all the jobs done by slaves - from table wiper to chamber pot attendant, and their respective titles - it also has some interesting information on master / slave relations, marriages of and with slaves, etc. ( p 23 - 34 ) Formosus

Trekkies Bash New Star Trek Film As 'Fun, Watchable' http://www.theonion.com/content/video/trek..._star_trek_film F rmosus

Hello Windyrdg, Not quite to do with Imperial servants as such, but I very much agree with that. In case you don't know about that already : Not counting the bits and pieces of Caesar and Livy I had to translate at school, Petronius was the first classical author I really read as such. He certainly got my interest in Rome going. And shortly afterwards there was Fellini's movie adaptation, 'Satyricon'. I think that until the mid 60s Petronius' work was as good as unknown to all but a few scholars, maybe. Then, keeping in spirit with the times, it made a sudden revival and I think it was even popular for a while with a wider public. Hence Fellini's 1969 movie. I haven't reread the book or seen the movie since, so it's all ages ago. But there are quite a few clips of it on youtube. It looks a bit 60s here and there now, and very much Fellini. It's more an artistic impression than an attempt at historical accuracy. Still, I think it's much better than far most historical movies about the period made before or since. You might find some inspiration there. Satyricon - trailer Satyricon - excerpt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyricon_(film) Formosus

Hello Artimi, Maybe you could help me out too ? You see, I have one of those humans as a pet as well. It's my kittens' fault, really. They kept pestering me, leaving me no peace whatsoever : 'Mom, can we have a human, please, to play with ? Mom ?' You know how they are. So, on their 10th weekday I gave in and got them one of those humans. It's a male. And maybe that was a mistake, because he's a terrible burden really. You see, he does use the toilet, but often as not his aim isn't quite what it should be. And then he leaves the seat up usually and sometimes forgets to flush even ! Horrible ! I have thought already of bringing him to the asylum. Maybe someone else will have him ? But if not, they'll probably put him down. I'm not sure if that is a feline thing to do. What's your opinion ? taktiK

Yes, the Austrian Cherman is notoriously difficult. I was in a restaurant in Vienna once, and I said to the waitress :

He'd make an excellent Don Quixote, though. F rmosus

Of course, as usual, there is not a word of truth in what Herr Twain writes. It is just a case of sour grapes, I'm afraid. Freude, sch

Nice one, Nephe ! That's a real find. Never heard of them before. And they look cute, I must say. 'Chiribim Chiribom', that's very nice.( Wonder what Hatsune would make of that.) And 'Bei mir bist Du Schein' : much better than the Andrews Sisters. So they certainly deserve an encore. That's what I always say. F rmosus

Thank you for enjoying them. The Pointers Sisters are still very BIG in Belgium. I couldn't get your link working from here, so I don't know what that is about. Here are some other favourite musical sisters of mine. The best girls group of the 40s. Yes, Laverne (!), Maxine and Patty Andrews were also real sistas. So this is what your parents / grandparents got up to in their wild days. They won't admit to that now, of course. andrew sisters - don't sit under the apple tree visit their website Free desktop wallpaper and screensaver downloads ! " I am ignorant and that's why I'm happy! " -- Patty Andrews No, really, she did say that. I didn't make that one up. F rmosus

This is by far the best analysis of the question, I think. Formosus

Didn't they compete in the Eurosong Festival, O-zone ? But, no, I'm sorry, they just aren't bad enough. The O-zone boys are good wing dancers, I'll grant you that

Yet another passage from Tacitus' Annals, book III, 23, 2 dealing with the trial of Aemilia Lepida. This one really leaves no doubt whatsoever. ''Then, by the torture of the slaves, her infamies were brought to light, and a motion of Rubellius Blandus was carried which outlawed her. Drusus supported him, though others had proposed a milder sentence. Subsequently, Scaurus, who had had daughter by her, obtained as a concession that her property should not be confiscated. Then at last Tiberius declared that he had himself too ascertained from the slaves of Publius Quirinus that Lepida had attempted their master's life by poison.'' I think that from this and the other passages from the same book, it can safely be concluded that the torture of slaves was indeed pretty common in high profile court cases at the time. The matter of fact way in which it is stated here makes it even clearer. (And this time no discrepancies between the English and the Dutch translations ) I must say that I've never found Tacitus the easiest of authors to read. He gives a lot of information but he is sometimes quite ambiguous and hard to understand. I'm beginning to suspect that has more to do with the kind of Latin he wrote than with the abilities of his translators. Now, my next question is : 'How much better were freedmen and 'capite censi' protected by the law in reality ?' Amongst a company of just slaves, freedmen and freedwomen and lowly free citizens, their respective legal status would have made all the difference in the world to them. I'm sure that in his heart, even the poorest free citizen felt himself to be far superior to even the best off slave, but I have the impression that the ruling senatorial class in practice didn't make all that much distinction between these people. If you walk amongst a crowd you can easily see who are the taller and who are the shorter people. But looking down from a tower everybody looks equally small. As Kosmo remarked earlier, it probably wasn't a good idea for a lowly free citizen, living with his family of eight or ten in a single room in a cheap insula or so, to offend one of the more prominent slaves of the imperial household or of a senator. The slave himself and his master were likely to take that as a personal insult and I doubt that his free citizenship would have been all that much use to the culprit if the other party decided to take things seriously. His free status might have made it less likely that he could be subjected to torture, but for the rest, I wouldn't give that man much chance of getting away with it. Formosus

Livy goes on ''.... Amongst much other evidence bearing on the case this utterance of hers, which was only too truly confirmed by what followed, did most to secure her condemnation.'' And this is were the story ends. The next sentence deals with the enrolment of fresh troops for the wars. I'm often phased by the very laconic way the classical authors deal with such high profile cases. Anyway, Quarta Hostilia has found her way into the history books and her name will live forever. Thanks, Nephele. Formosus

# we are the cheeky girls, you are the cheeky boys, we are the cheeky girls, you are the cheeky boys, .... # cheeky girls - cheeky song ( touch my bum ) One of them is the fiancee of a British MP, would you believe it ? Don't ask me whether it is Monica or Gabriela. F rmosus

Now look what you have done ! http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertai...me-1694528.html F rmosus

Indian spotted in Canada ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badlands_Guardian Formosus

"Caesarum aut senatorum additas atrocis vel occultas notas accusator arguebat. negante reo adgnoscentis servos per tormenta interrogari placuit. et quia vetere senatus consulto quaestio in caput domini prohibebatur, callidus et novi iuris repertor Tiberius mancipari singulos actori publico iubet, scilicet ut in Libonem ex servis salvo senatus consulto quaereretur." "When the accused denied this, it was decided that his slaves who recognised the writing should be examined by torture. As an ancient statute of the Senate forbade such inquiry in a case affecting a master's life, Tiberius, with his cleverness in devising new law, ordered Libo's slaves to be sold singly to the State-agent, so that, forsooth, without an infringement of the Senate's decree, Libo might be tried on their evidence." Tacitus, Annals, II, 30,3 Well this certainly proves that the ability to make the law say whatever one wants it to say, is not a recent acquirement. This, in my view makes 'what the law said', pretty irrelevant : Tiberius could have anyone tortured whom he wanted to be tortured. And so could the Senate, unless the Princeps objected, I suspect : if the law stood in their way, they simply changed it. I don't think this was a unique incident. I rather have the impression that the Romans were pretty adept at making impromptu changes to the laws, in order to suit specific cases. But alas, I must say that again I find a discrepancy between the English and the Dutch translations. And this time I think the difference is quite significant. Here's what it says in Dutch. ''... bevel de slaven stuk voor stuk van overheidswege vrij te kopen ...''

Morituri te Salutant ! Aber das ist geschichtlig gar nicht richtig. Gladiators in the Circus Maximus ? Well, if Asterix says so. Very nice video, Medusa, thanks ! F rmosus

Yes, I think that last point is quite clear. I only wanted to point out originally that that came across much clearer in the Dutch than in the English translation. But let's forget about it. I promise I won't nit pick anymore. By the way : I didn't know you had the word '' merciless '' in Hebrew. F

Thanks for putting me right on that one, Nephe. I hadn't gotten as far yet as Annals, III, 67, 3 - I'm still at III, 17. But how did I miss II, 30, 3 ???? I've only read that a few days ago ! Shows what a scholar I am. I shall strew my head with ashes and deny myself fire and water for 10 minutes. F rmosus

Is there any real evidence for that ? Gratuitous torture, or applied as punishment is almost omnipresent in the classical histories, but I can't remember ever having read anything of that kind. In fact, the two passages concerning slaves involved as witnesses in court cases, that have recently come to attention here, seem to indicate the opposite. I'm not questioning the fact that there were plenty of laws on the subject. But we all know that the law and it's application are two entirely different things. Is there evidence that those laws were ever actually applied and if so, when and how frequently ? I came across this piece in wikipedia about the Lex Sempronia Agraria : The 500 iugera limit was a reiteration of previous land laws, such as the Licinian Laws passed in 367 B.C., which had been enacted but never enforced. As it stood in Ti. Gracchus's time, a good deal of this land was held in farms far in excess of 500 iugera by large landholders who had settled or rented the property in much earlier time periods, even several generations back. Sometimes it had been leased, rented, or resold to other holders after the initial sale or rental. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Gracchus Note that there is reference to previous laws, plural, which were never enforced. Yet land reform laws can hardly be regarded as trivial. And this passage seems to me much more a reflection of reality, than the supposition that we, because we can find Roman legislation on the subject, can assume that those laws were indeed applied at the time concerned, were even ever applied, let alone consequently. Formosus