Pantagathus
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Posts posted by Pantagathus
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If you peruse the "Tartarus" folder you may notice a decided increase in the number of troll posts that are sent there. As a moderator I believe flood control is a good thing, especially with the influx of sometimes questionable people.
Sorry for a little off topic side step but I did just go over to Tartarus and saw a completely random & ridiculous reply to one of my posts
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I also agree with DanM,
You really cannot compair Spain or North Africa with Gaul. Scipio left Spain when he accomplished his goal of removing the Carthaginians and the whole penninsula wasn't 'pacified' until Augustus.
After the destruction of Carthage, Rome made no move to gobble up Mauritania until 200 years later when someone needed to put another feather in their cap. Let's not fool ourselves, as Rome moved into the 1st Century BC, war became less and less about rightousness and more about opportunism; both economic and political.
If the campains in Gaul had used the same rational that drove Rome during most of the Republican period Gaul might not have been fully 'pacified' until 200 AD. Caesar used excuse after excuse to keep marching and conquering. The goal for himself was political & economic and the benefit of the State was an economic windfall that wasn't entirely needed.
The question wasn't was it good for Rome in the end; it was: "was it justified?"
In the way it was waged, I say no.
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Thank you P-P!
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LEG X,
I personally do not accept the Irish Monk theory but they did travel to Iceland in curraghs so I still would not underestimate the possibility.
For that matter, your reservations in general are quite common. However, have you ever heard of Dr. Thor Heyerdahl? He set out to prove that crossing both the Atlantic & Pacific using primitive technology was more than feasable and did it... Kon Tiki was just a balsa wood raft and he & his small crew lived off the 'fruit of the ocean'
As for the 'recording it', I ask why is that a must? Why impose modern standards? The Carthaginians especially were very closed lipped about their 'trade secrets'... However, if you accept Dr. Barry Fell's work they did record it... just over here.
Anyway, in regards to the Veneti ships, I believe there was a post here awhile ago titled "Celtic Fleet" that I quoted much of that passage of De Bello Gallico
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With "non-legendary" items we have a definite shopping list, I think Primus Pilus has identified the "legendary or possibly non-rational cultural totems". I wouldnt deny Excalibur as my tribal totem , but for the purpose of this list perhaps I have to exclude it. Ghengis Khans tomb should exist or should have existed at some stage of history so I think that is a clear inclusion ,Excalibur is a "possiblity" but much more likely to be an idea or totemisation of an artefact after the fact of a series of events.
What is the feeling on this?
Legendary item of the type need a different thread...
This thread should contain things that are specifically mentioned by numerous ancient sources as tangable realities in their time that we do not have access to in the present.
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I came across a couple of references to Casson's book online - thanks for the recommendation.
I've requested one of Casson's books from the local library and I'm probably going to buy Ships and Seamanship of the Ancient World - from all the reviews I've read it is supposed to have great descriptions and illustrations backed by archaeological and historical evidence.
You're welcome
Though Ancient Mariners is his classic per say, Ships and Seamanship of the Ancient World is much more indepth. I own both but if I could only choose one, there is no question. It is quite the difinitive source & yes, the illustrations are very thorough.
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Thank you very much Silentium,
Please don't let it detract from your studies. It will always be here to be discussed!
I will say that this serves as another example that research & presentation of theories on the ancient world is by no means a 'dead horse'... There are many lines of investigation that have barely been touched and others that are in need of a total theory overhaul!
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If I may nitpick... megaliths like Stonehenge pre-date Druids. I think that as long as people have had sea-worthy vessels and a remote chance of reaching America, they've been discovering it. People are crazy enough to do anything.
You may nitpick & I have edited out the Druid part. Though, that discussion could very well have it's own thread. There is reason to believe as Pertinax has suggested that the fundamentals of what became known as Druidism had Neolithic roots with the indigenous Europeans...
As to the second part of your post Moonlapse: well said!
Pertinax, I'm afraid that my knowledge on the Polynesian mariners is still rudimentary as well... That's about what I know as well save the fact that one of their navigation techniques for finding new islands involved reading wave patterns. They learned how the swells could indicate what direction & how far land was...
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excellently provocative! more please.
As it is a lengthy background I will leave it to the infinitely resourceful, 19th Century Dr. William Smith to give you the primer: Pytheas of Massalia
As for the best modern book on the subject I *highly* recommend Barry Cunliffe's The Fantastic Voyage of Pytheas the Greek
Cheers!
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would I be correct in placing the Veneti toward the mouth of the Somme or further toward the now poldered area of the Netherlands? I remember reading this passage but never placing it into any sort of mental map.
The Veneti were actually of Armorica and operated mostly on the southern edge of Brittany (the north end of the Bay of Biscay).
I think 2 things assist with muddying the mental picture:
1. Caesar states that Belgae joined their cause
2. One tends to consider them a linear obstacle to Caesar's drive towards Britain when it was more an assualt driven by their affront to the Romans.
Of course this little detail helps the Veneti's case in the course of our speculative investigation as they were quite acustom to travel on the open ocean...
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'What if' scenarios are a cornerstone of scientific inquiry and only some extreme cases are without merit...
That being said, it just so happens that there appears to have been a major climatic event ~535AD. If I remember correctly from what I read it was supposedly volcanically triggered. Supposedly Krakatau?
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Fine Job Pertinax,
May Asclepius forever take care of you my friend!
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Welcome Branch,
They certainly would have been transported in merchantmen vessels, i.e 'round ships' or 'tubs'. Not in Pentekonters, Triremes or any "beaked" warship. Probably why you see in one of those references that they embarked from a seperate location.
Ancient merchantmen vessels could haul quite a suprisingly large burden. Not matched again really until the 15th Century of our era... If I'm working out a sample tonnage in my head correctly (so don't hold me to this) I would say that you could get upwards a 500 member calvary in one.
If you are looking for offline references as well, I highly recommend Lionel Casson's book Ships & Seamanship of the Ancient World. Quite the best resource offered in the field in my opinion as he goes beyond the ships themselves and covers elements like crew terminology, cargo set ups, etc...
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First, to Pertinax:
I believe our views on the Romans in this case is the same, we just worded it differently. Disinclination is quite the proper word.
In regards to the Carthaginians; along with the anecdotes of Diodorus, there are 2 other legends emanating out of Portugal in regards to Corvo in the Azores that are considered vital clues
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A copy Pytheas of Massalia's actual manuscript that he published after his journey to Northern Europe in the 4th Century BC. Peri tou
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Most of what's on UNESCO's World Heritage List!
Hmmm.... So many.....
I'll just say the Minoan Palace of Knossoss on Crete
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I presume you were thinking Carthage, Iberians and Celts as leaders in the field? and the Irish monks as inheritors of celtic technology? You are the seadog ,do you think the Romans would have tried out of sheer force of personality versus alleged disinclination?
I do indeed consider those as the most likely candidates. Though, I will say that it appears that the "Swift Footed Ligurians" of Avenius (i.e. the Megalith Builders) seemed to have been first... As I have just recently seen the megalithic calenderstone site in New Hampshire ('America's Stonehenge') for my own eyes and accept the method they used to obtain a 2000 BC C-14 date for the main part of the structure.
Anyway, from inscription point of view it seems that the Iberians with some Phoenician partners may have been over here early in the 1st Millenium BC exploiting copper & furs while carving numerous thanks to Baal before they left in various rock faces.
The Celts probably came here with similar prospecting motivations.
The Carthaginians I think found America by accident when they were forced to figure out the reticent Tartessian trade routes in the 5th Century BC. This is what I believe is mentioned in passing by Diodorus' in his Book V when we talks about the huge island they found way to the west.
Along those lines I've mused over Himlico's Atlantic voyage as we know it from Avenius. Himlico said he could scarecly reach his destination in 4 months! It surely doesn't take that long to go North to the British Isles no matter how bad the weather is. I bet the Tartessians said to Himlico, "Oh yeah, just head due west, you'll find the tin isles, sure thing" and then chuckled to themselves, "Dumb sod, have fun in the doldrums!"
He also seems to have encountered the Saragossa Sea and we can infer that he did reach a destination after this 4 months.
The Romans pose an interesting question. I wouldn't call it disinclination out of fear, but the really don't seem to have cared. I mean it took them 200 years after spanking Carthage to do anything with Mauritania. I just think they had their hands full with what they had and didn't need to venture out in the Atlantic much in an effort to prospect. They just weren't under economic pressure that would have forced that venture.
Still, for some reason, I feel that some nameless Roman made it over here; as you say "out of sheer force of personality.
In the end, we must remember that the folks who lived on the Ocean didn't have the same view that the Romans & Greeks held of it. To them it would be almost the beginning of their world. Not the outer edge of it.
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The items must be extant? not say for example particular famous texts destroyed in the fire at Alexandria?
Pertinax has a point. We almost need 2 lists. One of (supposed to be) exant artifacts and ones the would have a profound impact on our understanding of the world if authentically found.
For now I will go with exant or once exant artifacts:
The 12 Tablets Containing the Epic of Gilgamesh
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The post about the Calixtlahuaca Head got me thinking that it's about time to throw this topic out.
I've read varying theories of who came over here (to America) before Columbus & the Norsemen which includes, but is not limited to the following:
1. The Carthaginians
2. The Libyans
3. The Celts
4. The Megalith Builders
5. The Ancient Iberians (Celtiberians & Tartessians)
6. The Basques
7. Irish Monks of the Dark & Middle Ages
8. The Romans
9. The Chinese
10. The Jomans
11. The Israelites
12. The Templars
Some evidence can be interpreted as convincing and some as complete rubbish. In certain cases I tend to feel the answer is yes. What do you think?
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As to its late inhumation -could it have been a prized "foreign" antique of great value?
Seems the most likely reason in that case.
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I've long since grown tragically accustomed to the fact that I share the planet with a vast majority of people who find my interests are completely abnormal.
It's quite a shame for sure. What really stinks is when people think you're being condecending just because you throw a learned anecdote into a conversation:
Me - "Wow, this looks like it's going to be a Herculean task!"
Coworker - "OMG, I like, don't even know what that means! You don't have to treat me like I'm stupid!
Lately it's been bothering me more and more:
1. I'm a wonderful listener and overly empathetic to everyone but if I have to fiegn interest in another long, droll, mindless subject with someone who hasn't even taken a second to acknowledge what interests me I'm going to poke someone's eye out...
2. My girlfriend is making more money than she used to and buys quite a bit more random 'stuff' these days. Though I may not attach any value to the aforementioned 'stuff' it's her money and if makes her happy then great. But, when I recently got another rare, out of print book in the mail, she maliciously scoffed with words to the affect of "Another book"? Like the others should have contained all universal knowledge and I was wasting my money for buying another...
3. If I'm reading and 'someone else' (see above) is watching some mindless program on the TV, I'm the one considered being rude for not spending time with them...
Sorry for assisting the venture off topic but this topic really hits home with me as it seems to with the rest of you...
BTW: Pertinax, that quote belongs on a monument
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I've read that they narrowed it down even further because the hairstyle was popular during Septimius Severus' reign.
I personally think it's a genuine old world article that made it across the pond either by successive 'blind' trade hand offs or as a direct gift by some unknown ancient envoy to America... Though, if it was option 2, why would it have taken 1300 years to end up in a tomb?
"The fact that all of the modern American nations are a result --in different degrees--, of the cultural and biological symbiosis between the populations of the Old World and Pre-Hispanic America, makes the search for the beginnings of this transcendental and still ongoing process an anthropological exercise that does not lack either sense or relevance.
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So I ask you if you beleive the Augurs and other priests told the answer-seeker what was best in their opinion, or did they honestly consult the gods?
Sextus,
Except for the Oracle at Delphi (which seems to have had some geo-chemical assistance) I would say that in general, they were giving answers & advice based on their sagacious opinions. Does that mean they were lying & cheating? Not necessarily.
More than likely they were confident (through their training) that they were in fact acting on behalf of the Gods.
Though I agree that they usally used gimicks to wow their 'customers'...
I've read in a few places that even the Druid priests made use of what we would consider parlor tricks.
Particularly, one priest would find out what the problem was from the 'customer' and then non-verbally communicate to the 'Oracle' priest (or what have you) via Ogahm signs using their shin as the writing stem line (kind of like how catchers & pitchers communicate). That way, the Oracle priest knew the problem and the solution before the customer even told them. -
There is stuff out there that is, look for eductional institution urls and credible online translation sites like the excellent perseus tufts digital library.
I also *highly* recommend Perseus Tufts Digital Libray. The inclusion of William Smith's Dictionaries of Aniquities (Biography-Mythology & Geography) from 1854 is absolutely priceless. They are the most extensively researched reference materials out there (at least that I've found) and they will lead you to any amount of sources you can imagine.
If you wanted your own copies you are talking ~$500 a pop and on Perseus Tufts it's there for free and you don't have to spend hours in a library looking through them.
Though I will say that their hyperlinks from their search engine are broken right now...
The Gallic Wars
in Res Publica
Posted
I understand exactly where you are coming from P-P
I could have worded my remark more clearly as it was meant to be a general reply. My main point was that one can see how the goals of certain major campaigns changed over time indicating how their moralities were changing.
So then the question is, who's (or what time period's) moralities do you judge it by? I judge them by what I consider to be the high point of their morality, 4th-3rd Centuries BC