Pantagathus
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Posts posted by Pantagathus
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Wait so humans were in North America 125,000 years ago rather than 19,000 years ago. I'm so confused.
There are also sites on the east coast from Georgia to Virginia that are yielding dates ~ 50,000 years old.
Though, it's important to remember that the evidence from the Calico site is from at time that it would have been left by homo erectus not homo sapiens which is even more of a slam to orthodox theory...
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Where is Baetia? Also, is Ardea in Campania.
Baetia was the Roman province name for the area near the Guadalquivir river in Spain, bound by the Anas River to the west, the Sierra Morena to the north and the Orespeda to the east.
The Turditani lived primarily near the south west of the territory closer to the Atlantic.
As for Ardea, it was in Latinum only about 24 miles from Rome, south of Ostia on the coast.
Note: Pelasgians = Mycenean Greeks ~ non Indo-European Greeks
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More than likely, we all know Saguntum well as the city in Iberia that Hannibal sacked to spark the 2nd Punic War. However, many aspects regarding the foundation of the city and how it came to be allied with Rome is somewhat shrouded in a vague mist.
The general consensus is that it started out as a village of the Iberian Editani tribe who then accepted 'foreign' settlers at some point in the middle of the 1st Millennium BC (or earlier...) Though it's typically identified as a Greek colony, I say 'foreign' loosely because that
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All I know of them is that were at least an Indo-European people... No doubt ancestors of the Scythians (& related tribes) of centuries before. Definitely more calvary oriented than infantry
Though I don't profess to follow much of humanity's downward spiral into the Dark Ages.
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If you discuss scandinavian/byzantine trade routes it still seems to surprise people that such a trade path existed .
As does does the archaeological evidence that points to an extensive Atlantic Coast (seaborne) trade system from the south of Iberia all the way to Britain & Ireland spanning from at least as early as the Bell-Beaker days...
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And may I wish our American cousins a pleasant Thanksgiving.
Thank you, we like to start our Saturnalia early over here...
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Excellent!
It still perplexes me that orthodox belief has such a hard time grasping sea travel spanning the Ice & Stone ages...
How else did the Gauches get to the Canaries from Iberia?
I think the key to how plausible it really is resides in the Ancient Irish (who are direct descendants of Neolithic hunter-gatherers) legacy technology of the Currach & Coracles.
They are strong, durable, can carry heavy burden, are easily transportable on land by even a pair of individuals, and can be made with everything available to pre-historic man (materials & toolkit). Given the state of the late Pleistocene & early Holocene 'forests', currach/coracles make more sense than even hollowed out canoes.
Just because the nature of the materials they are made from are not conducive to leaving archaeological trace doesn't mean that they weren't employed by pre-historic man...
As to the general notion of what men employed first in the Mediterranean; Pot rafts my arse.
That's a landlubber's notion... -
I came across a follower of the Norse religion that told me a story about one of his friends. His friend practiced the Roman religion and was very keen on making it as true to historical facts as possible, thus he followed the ancient recipie of making cakes to leave on his home altar for offerings (i forget to which deity), and he said he later had a dream where it was quite clear that the goddess involved was actually much more interested in the box of chocolates at the other side of the room.
I got locked out of my house recently and spent almost 45 minutes ruining various credit & ID cards trying to jimmy my way in. (Luckily this one particular door isn't a dead bolt)
Finally, I took a deep breath and prayed to Portunes to please grant me access to my house with the promise to pour libations to him that night.
***CLICK***
Door opened on the next try just like that.
Portunes got some real nice Spanish tempranillo that evening and I plan on carving a small alabaster representation of him to be placed near my doorway.
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Animals were specific to Deities-the donkey to Priapus for reasons of lustihood...
Hehehe.... And for embarassing Priapus and giving away his intent to rape Lotis...
Kinda funny that the ithyphallic little bugger was also the parton of sailors...
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Not much chance of using it to give your Legion a strategic advantadge-"I think the Samnites are up near the neck of the vase chaps, take a look round will you? And pour me another one while your holding that thing
"BTW Pertinax
That was quite hilarious...ha, Samnites
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Salve Citizens,
I was at a dinner in Hollywood Friday with some industry execs and the scuttlebut was HBO is disappointed with the number of viewers to Rome. WHen I mentioned that they ordered a second season, they said they did it to justify the very expensive price tag and hoping it will find it's audience. I know some series like The Sopranos and Star Trek Next Generation took two seasons to gather a wide audience. I just hope a show as smart as Rome doesn't fall so soon. Make sure and tell your friends to tune in to HBO's Rome and get their numbers up.
*&@%(*%
See, I don't have HBO and so I was just planning on buying the 1st Season DVD when it comes available. I guess I better just pay the extra for HBO to help the show out because all I've heard is overwhelmingly positive feedback...
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True enough, but if you grew up with these sorts of things around the house, you'd understand how to read a sheep-skin map once you were old enough to be a legionary--that would be a strategic advantage.
Off Topic but... Welcome M. Porcius Cato!
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Nice site I've found in regards to dealing with the Apuan Ligurians
Paints a better picture of what Rome's northern neighbors were like leading up to their confrontations after the 2nd Punic War.
Also, see here for links to mentions by date of the Ligurians & Liguria in the ancient sources. (Scroll down to get to them)
Cheers!
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Too bad this 'oldest' map is equivalent to one of those State magnets you get in an airport gift shop...
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Though the gods could indeed be petty, I don't think that is the whole reason behind the desire to perform the complicated rites exactly. I think it had more to do with the idea of a secret formula that delves into the nature of the universe, than the petty whims of a god.
That is an extremely accurate remark Favonius... especially in the framework of the various 'Mystery Cults'
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However, conversely monotheism has the advantage of comfort with regards to death. The afterlife is quite clear, be good, go to Heaven, be bad then don't. If someone dies you have reassurance that you'll meet them again one day in the next world.
Ah, Christianity and Islam yes.... Judaism, no
The hope of the afterlife is found all over the place and the Greeks & Romans embraced the concept of heaven & hell well back into the mists of antiquity...
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Well,
I found another interesting tidbit along this line of investigation... :pimp:
I am currently reading Rhys Carpenter's (1966) Beyond the Pillars of Heracles which was the first installment of the so called 'Great Explorers' Series back in the day. Anyway, last night I jumped ahead and looked at his treatment on Avienus' poem to see if he may have commented on the curious use of the Ligurians and luckily he did!
Mind you, Carpenter's focus in treating 'Ora Maritima' was primarily to glean information almost exclusively on Pytheas' journey so I found him dismissive at times (some he even considered nonsense!) about other out of place curiosities. However, his assumtion is fundamentally the same as mine and begins his mention of Avienus' use of Ligurians as such:
"The mention of Ligurians may give us pause until we recognize that, to Avienus' antiquarian thinking, the Ligurians are merely the pre-Celtic population of Europe. These were displaced by the Celts in various sectors and absorbed by them in other localities, according as conditions and the vagaries of chance determined"
However, Carpenter like almost everyone else before current genographic data was available considers the Irish and the Picts to simply be Celtic people who overran & absorbed the original inhabitants. (Which like I said we now know it didn't exactly happen that way and that genetically, they did constitute the original inhabitants!)
Forgiving this, the following paragraphs still have merit as he still makes his point that Avienus' was using Pytheas' report from over a millennium earlier. Anyway, to pick back up in quoting Carpenter:
"That being so, these seventeen lines of mediocre Latin verse deserve the closest attention because they constitute the only surviving ancient account of the conflict of the immigrant Celts and with the older neolithic civilization of Britain; descendants of the builders of Stonehenge and the dolmen-folk of a more ancient period..."
If only Carpenter had lived to learn that the neolithic, non-Celtic, Atlantic seaboard populations of Western Europe were infinitely more homogeneous than anyone imagined!
Incidentally, he wraps this part up with, what in hindsight is quite a fascinating clincher. He adds a sort of postscript by quoting a curious ~12th Century AD latin manuscript that dealt with the ancient history of Norway which included Orkneys:
"The Picts were scarcely more than dwarves in stature. Evenings and mornings, they were wonderfully active in building their towns; but at the middle day they were wholly without strength and lurked in their small underground houses. (Brochs?) ....Whence this people came, we have know knowledge whatsoever"
Remember what the Harper's quote in my first post said about the Ligurian stature?
Makes me think of something Herodotus said: "All is possible in the long passage of time..."
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I beleive a Similar reward was given to the first sailor who boarded a enemy ship durring a naval battle, was it not?
Yes, I believe that it was treated as the same thing
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I don't believe the Gods are "all knowing" OR "all powerful" because if they WERE, wouldn't there only need to be one of them? The all work together and they do just fine
One of the keys to understanding polytheism in general is how the connection between humanity and divinity was perceived. The underlying theme was always that there was an element of divinity in humanity and an element of humanity in divinity. Which of course makes them individually fallible and all bound by the natural order (~Logos~).
You will find this theme throughout humanity
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Sickening. There should be no unknowns, there should be no private ownership of humanity's history, that vase belongs in a museum!
Though uncomfortable about it, I feel that private ownership is ok as long as it's registered and it's whereabouts completely transparent.
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Pantagathus-thats a most learned piece. What is your feeling about the Ligurian " bloodline" do you think they are pictish?( or have become described as such) Certainly Hibernia is remote enough to hold a people who wish to withdraw from easy contact ..Its so long since I looked at early populations that I cant trust my memory (must be a joke in there somewhere ), do you have any thoughts as to relationships with linguistic groups: I know thats stretching a thin skein of evidence a long way but you have provoked my curiosity!
Thanks to you as well my friend,
I guess I should clarify a little more in regards to the genetic affinities I place between the Ligurians, Iberians & Picts. If you all remember my ramblings from the threads dealing with the Iberians (as I've done in other threads dedicated to certain 'peoples') I've tried to match up what the scientific community has to say about current genographic data with what we know of the movements of ancient ethnic groups.
One thing that seems clear to me from the current data is that liguistics don't always match up properly with genetics. This should not be suprising if one just considers what has happened in the last ~300 years here in America; specifically, most Native American's first language is currently English...
Though I find myself having to defend that point a lot because it muddies the waters for certain academic's lines of investigations, I still maintain it's a reliable caveat.
That being said, the 'bloodline' that connects these groups of people (well the Iberians & the Irish for certain) is the Y-chromosome marker R1b (M343).
A couple of years ago when it was first realized that modern Irish display this marker in about ~90% of the population, the modern Spanish at ~80% (with it being over 90% in Basque communities) and substantially less in continental Europeans, the investigators had uncovered quite a pickle in regards to if the Irish should really consider themselves 'Celts' as they really are more akin to Neolithic hunter-gatherers who had been in western Europe for a much longer period of time.
This marker came about from gene mutation that occured in 1 male individual about 30,000-40,000 years ago and his hiers spread into Western Europe from somewhere in Asia. We know from ancient DNA sampling (bones, teeth, etc) that these people were the ones who left us the beautiful Magdalenian cave art during the Paleolithic throughout the area that I mentioned in the first post.
Then it seems that during the last glacial maximum, they took refuge almost solely in Iberia and when the ice receeded, it was groups of these R1b carrying individuals who moved north into into the British Isles & Ireland when it was still connected by land. Then the seas rose even more and cut them off for thousands of years until the true Celts showed up in small numbers. These (meaning the non-Celts) are your Picts (& modern Irish for that matter!) and also your megalith builders.
The ancestors of the Ligurians must have then spread back to the areas we find them in during the Classical period. Now, it seems from what I have read, the confusion comes in because since they were closer to the Indo-European (Celtic) onslaught, they adopted certain conventions of Indo-European speech and some customs much as the Celtiberians had, even though they remained genetically distinct; racially speaking. So by the period of written record, their true cultural affinities were unclear.
To answer the question in regards to what their linguistic affinities, I would have to conclude it would have been from the same family as Basque. Before it was corrupted and then replaced by Indo-European language(s) of course. We may never know for certain; just as it seems that Southern Iberian (Tartessian) before they adopted Latin should also be classified as such.
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Pantagathus I can always count on facinating bits from you. This is an interesting theme, picting out specific areas and tribes for discussion, I hope you have more things to talk about. For myself I don't know much about the Ligurians other than they are your first target in Rome Total War.
Thanks Favonious, I'll try to keep this lively in an effort to stave off an untimely demise of the thread...
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Liguria - "(h
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Pompey didn't do squat... I also believe that Lucullus was the hero of the final chapters of the wars with Mithridates.
It's just obvious that his political drive was not as strong as many of his contemporaries.
Saguntum
in Historia in Universum
Posted
On the face of it I would have to say no as it would appear that Saguntum was founded after Carthage had apparently closed Tartessus to non-Punic trade.
However, though not really in the same area of the Iberian peninsula as Tartessus, if you remember from my post about it, the Turditani were in fact the ancestors of (/same as) the Tartessians. So, obviously it can be infered that Saguntum was indeed important in some sense even if the flourishing city operated as an unwelcome rivalry...
Would that rivalry have existed without Carthaginian interaction? We can only guess. Was there a rivalry since Saguntum's founding? I doubt it; but perhaps.