Pantagathus
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Posts posted by Pantagathus
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Pantagathus' Top 5 Books for understanding Carthage:
(1) Carthage: A History by Serge Lancel (Author) & Antonia Nevill (Translator)
(2) The Fall of Carthage: The Punic Wars 265-146BC by Adrian Goldsworthy
(3) Carthage by B.H Warmington
(4) The Phoenicians and the West: Politics, Colonies and Trade by Maria Eugenia Aubet (Author) & Mary Turton (Translator)
(5) Daily Life in Carthage at the Time of Hannibal by Gilbert Charles-Picard
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Pantagathus enters a little late smelling of salt air and saffron; he seems a bit fatigued from his trek up from Ostia but there is a mischievous sparkle in his eye
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'Blunder' is quite an understatement...
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Moon,
It made my day to learn that he and Joe Heller were friends... (makes sense though) Something Happened is one of the best American novels of all time.
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I know, but what research do we have on that subject?
Rameses,
My last post had nothing to do with the crackpot theories, it was highlighting the dangers of making rash comments by showing research insight in contrast to your generalize comments made here:
Remember that Carthage mainly traded around the Mediterranian a calm sea. The Atlantic is harsh, rugged, and nearly impossible to traverse.Basically I was saying that using the right ships the ancients of the Atlantic seaboard did indeed ply the Atlantic so your generalization is rubbish. Forget the image of the war galley trying to make it across the Atlantic but think of a gaulos, i.e. 'tub', merchantman vessel...
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I've never heard of him prior to this.
Oh what a travesty... I knew we were going to hear that eventually from one of the younger members of the site.
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I love this quote from his BBC obituary: He once joked: "I'm suing a cigarette company because on the package they promised to kill me, and yet here I am."
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So, if no undisputed written evidence will be found in a source the queston remains just a possibility.
Exactly
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When I heard this on the way to work my heart sank & it's extremely rare that I am moved by such news in regards to a 'celeb'.
I loved Vonnegut's style and a few of his books have a solid place in my top 10. (Sirens of Titan is still my favorite of his)
He was a one of a kind.
May Hermes Psycopompus and Vanth conduct his shade with the utmost care...
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Remember that Carthage mainly traded around the Mediterranian a calm sea....
The also traded up and down the Atlantic seaboard from Mogador on the west African Coast to at least north Lusitania. Archaeology has shed light on numerous Phoenician & Punic settlements in modern day Portugal. Furthermore, if we are to believe the Romans the Carthaginians were also sailing to Britain (versus using middlemen like the Veneti which is more probable). If you know anything about currents and wind in the Bay of Biscay, you know that hugging the shoreline was not the best way of heading North from Spain off the coast of Gaul.
It's known from the so called 'Marsala Wreck' that their ship building techniques accomplished very similar stability features (but through a slightly different approach) to what the Vikings were credited with having invented over 1000 years later.
Then of course there was Himilco's expedition (not to be confused with Hanno's). I've poured over those weird lines in Ora Maritima and if one considers that Himilco spent 4 months attempting to get to the Tin Isles and what was described en route, it sounds to me like the poor guy went west (some of the ancient geographers incorrectly placed Britain in relation to Spain btw). 4 months is just about the perfect amount of time for someone to cross, get spooked in/around the Saragossa Sea (which it sounds like Himilco describes) and turn around. Average crossing time for a sailing ship is ~52-60+ days.
So RtG, it's not wise to make generalized comments like that without having done any research on the subject.
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Hey, Pantagathus, thanks for that Bookfinder.com link in your previous posting! I've bookmarked it!
You are most welcome ^_^
Their search engine captures everything, even books that Amazon may have listed but not display for some reason.
It really is a valuable resource when trying to build a decent collection & bibliography on somewhat obscure subjects.
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Maybe it has to do with the herb called Eyebright (because of it's practical uses for eye health) now being considered a weed.... :mellow:
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Looks like Loeb covers it: Remains of Old Latin II: Livius Andronicus, Naevius, Pacuvius, Accius translated by E.H. Warmington
Also, the Earp study that Nephele brought up is available through Bookfinder.com
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Ahh, yes. New claims seem to come out every other year.
Heh, heh..I hear that. I think next week the 3 legged eskimos of Vietnam are gonna come out with their discovery of the New World.....
New claims do come out all the time, but to be fair the Carthaginian question has been floating around since the 17th Century...
The recent hoopla may be because of this guy: Mark McMenamin and his book (that isn't available anywhere): The Carthaginians Were Here: Evidence for an Early Crossing of the Atlantic. Apparently there is some Carthaginian coin that has a world map showing what he thinks is America on it and he went nuts and got sidetracked from his life as a geologist to investigate it...
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What fun! I haven't tried Google Earth, though, as I never downloaded and installed it on my computer. I'm suspicious of Google.
Por Que?
Forget the suspicion, for someone with your curiosities Nephele, I can see you playing with Google Earth for hours...
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And if Amazon or Abebooks doesn't have it, you can usually find something here: www.bookfinder.com
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Say I am at a big 4 way intersection, going straight through the light and there is a gas station or fast food place on the right corner of the aforementioned intersection (may not apply to my British friends), I absolutely loathe when some knucklehead tries to take a left out of there across at least three lanes of traffic of people waiting for the light...
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Looking at the rough Latitude where I grew up (35,05), I see that in the Med, it would land me just south of modern Chebba in Tunisia which is a bit down the coast from the ancient town of Thapsis (i.e. were Caesar defeated Scipio), -or- middle of Crete, -or- middle of Cyprus -or- northern Phoenicia some kilometers south of Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra)
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Nephele, have you played with Google Earth? You could sort of do it that way.
EDIT: Here are some in the ballpark...
Conimbriga - Lusitania (north bank of the Munda river in antiquity, near modern Ovar? in Portugal)
Oleastrum - Hispania (coast between Dertosa{Tertosa} & Tarraco{Tarragona})
Erycinum - Sardinia (perhaps in the ballpark of the modern Sedini or Tempio Pausania? North central tip-ish on the island)
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For 'cost effective' see List'o links. All online stuff.
And if that fails you then either go to a big University library or become one with the Amazon used marketplace...
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It really is an interesting question Maladict.
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*ugh* So, who did discover the new world? I knew about the Vikings and all. But after reading that article that Northern Neil gave us, I have no clue...I'm so confused....*sigh* I'm gonna go get some coffee....
ModernMarvel,
In essence, Moonlapse is of course correct but I want to revisit your original question about the Carthaginians.
There are 3 primary things that provide the crux of 'argument' for the folks who support the hypothesis that the Carthaginians-Phoenicians made it to America:
1. A horde of Carthaginian coins found on Corvo in the Azores in the late 18th Century. (Because the Azores are so far out in the Ocean and the easiest way to get there is to ride the currents from America and not to sail directly from Iberia, bla, bla) However, the coins are now missing and the context which they were originally found is fundamentally questionable.
2. Epigraphic 'evidence' of Punic inscriptions found in various locations in the Eastern US as identified by the late Dr. Barry Fell...
3. What Diodorus says in Book V. 19 & 20...
There are also scattered claims about 'verified' Phoenician-Punic shipwrecks in the Western Hemisphere but I've never been able to find anything published by an archaeological source on the subject.
There are a lot of tantilizing clues out there and it is highly probable that the situation Diodorus describes could have in essence happened (a ship blown off course from around the Canaries to be caught in the equitoral current and driven west). But the fact remains that nobody (other than the natives) exploited America in any lasting way until the arrival of Columbus & the Spanish.
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Don't forget about the Historia in Universum either. It's not just for 'modern' history.
Updating profiles etc.
in Renuntiatio et Consilium Comitiorum
Posted
In this case Pertinax, yes
In the middle of your profile page where all the tabs are (Blog, friends, gallery, etc.) look for the one labelled 'Settings'. Click on that tab and you should see right away the block for personal statement.