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Pantagathus

The Ligurians

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Pantagathus I can always count on facinating bits from you. This is an interesting theme, picting out specific areas and tribes for discussion, I hope you have more things to talk about. For myself I don't know much about the Ligurians other than they are your first target in Rome Total War. :)

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Pantagathus-thats a most learned piece. What is your feeling about the Ligurian " bloodline" do you think they are pictish?( or have become described as such) Certainly Hibernia is remote enough to hold a people who wish to withdraw from easy contact ..Its so long since I looked at early populations that I cant trust my memory (must be a joke in there somewhere :) ), do you have any thoughts as to relationships with linguistic groups: I know thats stretching a thin skein of evidence a long way but you have provoked my curiosity!

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Pantagathus I can always count on facinating bits from you. This is an interesting theme, picting out specific areas and tribes for discussion, I hope you have more things to talk about. For myself I don't know much about the Ligurians other than they are your first target in Rome Total War. :D

 

Thanks Favonious, I'll try to keep this lively in an effort to stave off an untimely demise of the thread... :)

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Pantagathus-thats a most learned piece. What is your feeling about the Ligurian " bloodline" do you think they are pictish?( or have become described as such) Certainly Hibernia is remote enough to hold a people who wish to withdraw from easy contact ..Its so long since I looked at early populations that I cant trust my memory (must be a joke in there somewhere :) ), do you have any thoughts as to relationships with linguistic groups: I know thats stretching a thin skein of evidence a long way but you have provoked my curiosity!

 

Thanks to you as well my friend,

 

I guess I should clarify a little more in regards to the genetic affinities I place between the Ligurians, Iberians & Picts. If you all remember my ramblings from the threads dealing with the Iberians (as I've done in other threads dedicated to certain 'peoples') I've tried to match up what the scientific community has to say about current genographic data with what we know of the movements of ancient ethnic groups.

 

One thing that seems clear to me from the current data is that liguistics don't always match up properly with genetics. This should not be suprising if one just considers what has happened in the last ~300 years here in America; specifically, most Native American's first language is currently English...

 

Though I find myself having to defend that point a lot because it muddies the waters for certain academic's lines of investigations, I still maintain it's a reliable caveat.

 

That being said, the 'bloodline' that connects these groups of people (well the Iberians & the Irish for certain) is the Y-chromosome marker R1b (M343).

 

A couple of years ago when it was first realized that modern Irish display this marker in about ~90% of the population, the modern Spanish at ~80% (with it being over 90% in Basque communities) and substantially less in continental Europeans, the investigators had uncovered quite a pickle in regards to if the Irish should really consider themselves 'Celts' as they really are more akin to Neolithic hunter-gatherers who had been in western Europe for a much longer period of time.

 

This marker came about from gene mutation that occured in 1 male individual about 30,000-40,000 years ago and his hiers spread into Western Europe from somewhere in Asia. We know from ancient DNA sampling (bones, teeth, etc) that these people were the ones who left us the beautiful Magdalenian cave art during the Paleolithic throughout the area that I mentioned in the first post.

 

Then it seems that during the last glacial maximum, they took refuge almost solely in Iberia and when the ice receeded, it was groups of these R1b carrying individuals who moved north into into the British Isles & Ireland when it was still connected by land. Then the seas rose even more and cut them off for thousands of years until the true Celts showed up in small numbers. These (meaning the non-Celts) are your Picts (& modern Irish for that matter!) and also your megalith builders.

 

The ancestors of the Ligurians must have then spread back to the areas we find them in during the Classical period. Now, it seems from what I have read, the confusion comes in because since they were closer to the Indo-European (Celtic) onslaught, they adopted certain conventions of Indo-European speech and some customs much as the Celtiberians had, even though they remained genetically distinct; racially speaking. So by the period of written record, their true cultural affinities were unclear.

 

To answer the question in regards to what their linguistic affinities, I would have to conclude it would have been from the same family as Basque. Before it was corrupted and then replaced by Indo-European language(s) of course. We may never know for certain; just as it seems that Southern Iberian (Tartessian) before they adopted Latin should also be classified as such.

Edited by Pantagathus

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Its very proper of you to bring me back to earth with your remark about the Native Americans- your observation is acute and poignant , reminding us of the fate of languages ( and peoples). I keep musing on the actual relationship of the Scotii and Picts , as im sure you know things seem to become even more unclear as we move into the period of "viking" domination and the vortex of petty kingdoms crossing ethnic and cultural boundaries (and the hiring of mercenaries across all these groups) . This is a quick reply in appreciation of your post, I wil come back to study it again.

 

Oddly enough I was just reading two very sobering quotes about Brittania and Hibernia( and Armenia)-"it was fine and glorious to have acquired them, not for any value , but for the great reputation they brought to the magnificence of Empire" (Florus -chum of Hadrian) and "The Romans have aimed to preserve their Empire by the exercise of prudence rather than extend their sway indefinitely over poverty -stricken and profitless tribes of barbarians" (Appian -on the fall back from the Antonine Wall)

Edited by Pertinax

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Well,

 

I found another interesting tidbit along this line of investigation... :pimp:

 

I am currently reading Rhys Carpenter's (1966) Beyond the Pillars of Heracles which was the first installment of the so called 'Great Explorers' Series back in the day. Anyway, last night I jumped ahead and looked at his treatment on Avienus' poem to see if he may have commented on the curious use of the Ligurians and luckily he did!

 

Mind you, Carpenter's focus in treating 'Ora Maritima' was primarily to glean information almost exclusively on Pytheas' journey so I found him dismissive at times (some he even considered nonsense!) about other out of place curiosities. However, his assumtion is fundamentally the same as mine and begins his mention of Avienus' use of Ligurians as such:

 

"The mention of Ligurians may give us pause until we recognize that, to Avienus' antiquarian thinking, the Ligurians are merely the pre-Celtic population of Europe. These were displaced by the Celts in various sectors and absorbed by them in other localities, according as conditions and the vagaries of chance determined"

 

However, Carpenter like almost everyone else before current genographic data was available considers the Irish and the Picts to simply be Celtic people who overran & absorbed the original inhabitants. (Which like I said we now know it didn't exactly happen that way and that genetically, they did constitute the original inhabitants!)

 

Forgiving this, the following paragraphs still have merit as he still makes his point that Avienus' was using Pytheas' report from over a millennium earlier. Anyway, to pick back up in quoting Carpenter:

 

"That being so, these seventeen lines of mediocre Latin verse deserve the closest attention because they constitute the only surviving ancient account of the conflict of the immigrant Celts and with the older neolithic civilization of Britain; descendants of the builders of Stonehenge and the dolmen-folk of a more ancient period..."

 

If only Carpenter had lived to learn that the neolithic, non-Celtic, Atlantic seaboard populations of Western Europe were infinitely more homogeneous than anyone imagined!

 

Incidentally, he wraps this part up with, what in hindsight is quite a fascinating clincher. He adds a sort of postscript by quoting a curious ~12th Century AD latin manuscript that dealt with the ancient history of Norway which included Orkneys:

 

"The Picts were scarcely more than dwarves in stature. Evenings and mornings, they were wonderfully active in building their towns; but at the middle day they were wholly without strength and lurked in their small underground houses. (Brochs?) ....Whence this people came, we have know knowledge whatsoever"

 

Remember what the Harper's quote in my first post said about the Ligurian stature? :(

 

Makes me think of something Herodotus said: "All is possible in the long passage of time..."

Edited by Pantagathus

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Nice site I've found in regards to dealing with the Apuan Ligurians

 

Paints a better picture of what Rome's northern neighbors were like leading up to their confrontations after the 2nd Punic War.

 

Also, see here for links to mentions by date of the Ligurians & Liguria in the ancient sources. (Scroll down to get to them)

 

Cheers!

Edited by Viggen

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This is a very interesting thread!The only information I had before was that the "Ligurian" language was non-indo-european. It is true that many people tend to get confused with the Celts..

There are so many theories being discussed on the subject, I think the analysis of genetic data might be very useful in this case too =). Once again, brilliant thread.

It would be nice to discuss the theories but I'm dealing with applied philology at the moment..

Suum cuique pulchrum est, I guess =|

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Thank you very much Silentium,

 

Please don't let it detract from your studies. It will always be here to be discussed!

 

I will say that this serves as another example that research & presentation of theories on the ancient world is by no means a 'dead horse'... There are many lines of investigation that have barely been touched and others that are in need of a total theory overhaul!

Edited by Pantagathus

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So, I'm currently working up an article on the Ligurians and I just have to share this passage about the Salassi (the last Ligurian tribe to be subdued) from Strabo. I admire these little buggers, such gumption!

 

"A great part of the country of the Salassi lies in a deep valley, formed by a chain of mountains which encloses the district on either side; a part of them however inhabit the overhanging ridges. The route of those who are desirous of passing from Italy over these mountains, lies through the aforesaid valley. Beyond this the road separates into two. The one which passes through the mountain peaks, known as the Pennine Alps, cannot be traversed by carriages; the other, which runs through the country of the Centrones, lies more to the west.

 

The country of the Salassi contains gold mines, of which formerly, in the days of their power, they were masters, as well as of the passes. The river Doria Baltea afforded them great facility in obtaining the metal by [supplying them with water] for washing the gold, and they have emptied the main bed by the numerous trenches cut for drawing the water to different places. This operation, though advantageous in gold hunting, was injurious to the agriculturists below, as it deprived them of the irrigation of a river, which, by the height of its position, was capable of watering their plains. This gave rise to frequent wars between the two nations; when the Romans gained the dominion, the Salassi lost both their gold works and their country, but as they still possessed the mountains, they continued to sell water to the public contractors of the gold mines; with whom there were continual disputes on account of the avarice of the contractors, and thus the Roman generals sent into the country were ever able to find a pretext for commencing war.

 

And, until very recently, the Salassi at one time waging war against the Romans, and at another making peace, took occasion to inflict numerous damages upon those who crossed over their mountains, by their system of plundering; and even exacted from Decimus Brutus, on his flight from Mutina, a drachm per man. Messala, likewise, having taken up his winter quarters in their vicinity, was obliged to pay them, both for his fire-wood, and for the elm-wood for making javelins for the exercise of his troops. In one instance they plundered the treasures of C

Edited by Pantagathus

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And while we're talking about gold mines, don't forget another natural resource of ancient Liguria -- the culinary/medicinal herb Lovage, whose name was ligusticum in classical Latin, levisticum/libystikon in later Latin and Greek, hence liv

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And while we're talking about gold mines, don't forget another natural resource of ancient Liguria -- the culinary/medicinal herb Lovage, whose name was ligusticum in classical Latin, levisticum/libystikon in later Latin and Greek, hence liv

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Fratres!

Lovage-Ligusticum levisticum , native to the med but cultivated in Britain and the americas.The plant is used for root and rhizome, though the leaves were always used as a salad (with lettuce) , we know that phthalides are present and some coumarins. As a medicine it is a sedative, anti spasmodic and antimicrobial. Its 'everyday" use would be asa good mouthwash when suffering a throat infection ,ulceration or infected gums.Fortunately not an anaphrodisiac like Lettuce.In the past the stalks were eaten like celery.

 

Ill have a look at Pliny and see what the great man tells us-and by the way Lovage was often used to flavour beer ( like cowslip herb-"Freya's key"). :whistling: Though Yarrow displaced it in later Medieval times as a flavouring.

 

There are several sub species-the American variety is used more as a cough medicine.

 

Pantagathus do you have any American beers with these flavourings?

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Ill have a look at Pliny and see what the great man tells us-and by the way Lovage was often used to flavour beer ( like cowslip herb-"Freya's key"). :whistling: Though Yarrow displaced it in later Medieval times as a flavouring.

 

Pantagathus do you have any American beers with these flavourings?

 

Actually, this may just be the key! The Ligurians were also said to had a particular barley drink that they were known for. That it wasn't just called beer-ale means that it must have had some other distinction to set it appart from other fermented barley drinks.

 

I'll look the passage of Strabo (in the Greek version) where he mentions the drink and see what name he gives it.

 

As for American beers utilizing this, I'll have to check. I can't recall off the top of my head.

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