Pre-columbian Contact With America

[Pantagathus]

The post about the Calixtlahuaca Head got me thinking that it's about time to throw this topic out.

 

I've read varying theories of who came over here (to America) before Columbus & the Norsemen which includes, but is not limited to the following:

 

1. The Carthaginians

2. The Libyans

3. The Celts

4. The Megalith Builders

5. The Ancient Iberians (Celtiberians & Tartessians)

6. The Basques

7. Irish Monks of the Dark & Middle Ages

8. The Romans

9. The Chinese

10. The Jomans

11. The Israelites

12. The Templars

 

Some evidence can be interpreted as convincing and some as complete rubbish. In certain cases I tend to feel the answer is yes. What do you think?

Edited November 29, 2005 by Pantagathus

[Pertinax]

Ok -so whose maritime/transport/exploratory technology was up to the trip?

I presume you were thinking Carthage, Iberians and Celts as leaders in the field? and the Irish monks as inheritors of celtic technology? You are the seadog ,do you think the Romans would have tried out of sheer force of personality versus alleged disinclination?

[Viggen]

Ok -so whose maritime/transport/exploratory technology was up to the trip?

I presume you were thinking Carthage, Iberians and Celts as leaders in the field? and the Irish monks as inheritors of celtic technology? You are the seadog ,do you think the Romans would have tried out of sheer force of personality versus alleged disinclination?

 

I have no doubt that Phoenicians or Romans could have been in the Americas, but rather by accident (pushed westwards in a major storm for example), however i have big doubts those stranded "Europeans" every managed to get back to europe...

 

cheers

viggen

[Pantagathus]

I presume you were thinking Carthage, Iberians and Celts as leaders in the field? and the Irish monks as inheritors of celtic technology? You are the seadog ,do you think the Romans would have tried out of sheer force of personality versus alleged disinclination?

 

I do indeed consider those as the most likely candidates. Though, I will say that it appears that the "Swift Footed Ligurians" of Avenius (i.e. the Megalith Builders) seemed to have been first... As I have just recently seen the megalithic calenderstone site in New Hampshire ('America's Stonehenge') for my own eyes and accept the method they used to obtain a 2000 BC C-14 date for the main part of the structure.

 

Anyway, from inscription point of view it seems that the Iberians with some Phoenician partners may have been over here early in the 1st Millenium BC exploiting copper & furs while carving numerous thanks to Baal before they left in various rock faces.

 

The Celts probably came here with similar prospecting motivations.

 

The Carthaginians I think found America by accident when they were forced to figure out the reticent Tartessian trade routes in the 5th Century BC. This is what I believe is mentioned in passing by Diodorus' in his Book V when we talks about the huge island they found way to the west.

 

Along those lines I've mused over Himlico's Atlantic voyage as we know it from Avenius. Himlico said he could scarecly reach his destination in 4 months! It surely doesn't take that long to go North to the British Isles no matter how bad the weather is. I bet the Tartessians said to Himlico, "Oh yeah, just head due west, you'll find the tin isles, sure thing" and then chuckled to themselves, "Dumb sod, have fun in the doldrums!"

 

He also seems to have encountered the Saragossa Sea and we can infer that he did reach a destination after this 4 months.

 

The Romans pose an interesting question. I wouldn't call it disinclination out of fear, but the really don't seem to have cared. I mean it took them 200 years after spanking Carthage to do anything with Mauritania. I just think they had their hands full with what they had and didn't need to venture out in the Atlantic much in an effort to prospect. They just weren't under economic pressure that would have forced that venture.

 

Still, for some reason, I feel that some nameless Roman made it over here; as you say "out of sheer force of personality.

 

In the end, we must remember that the folks who lived on the Ocean didn't have the same view that the Romans & Greeks held of it. To them it would be almost the beginning of their world. Not the outer edge of it.

Edited November 28, 2005 by Pantagathus

[Pertinax]

the megalith builders must have had serious technological capabilities ,you just cant throw things together on that scale at that time without using water to get around.I wasnt implying Roman trepidation only disinclination,a case of use a road to do it properly and put down "hard markers" in territorial terms. Surely the Carthaginians have the pedigree to have a go at such a big undertaking, or stay alive in circumstances beyond their control? I still have asneaky feeling about the celt-iberians.Any gene residues ever been detected?

 

and I say no to the Libyans-good in a brawl but maybe not that far from home.

Edited November 28, 2005 by Pertinax

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

I definitely know Eric the Red made it to America, but due to the hardships they endured which their work gained them nothing, the New World fell in disfavor. As for the Classical cultures, its not hard to believe that someone by chance found America, most probably from being changed courses due to Atlantic storms.

[LEG X EQ]

I really doubt that Romans shiped anywhere near America,

1. The interest, they were more keen about the lands in the east , than the sea in the west.

2. Records, if such an expedition would have taken place (to explore the ocean in the west), somebody would have recorded it.

3. Even if such an expedition took place, and nobody recorded it, the crew would have died along the way, because of not knowing how huge the atlantic is, and so not storing enough food and water suplies.

 

The celts were not really known for being great ship builders. So alone because of that , i really doubt that celts made it across the atlantic.

 

The Carthagians or Phoenicians in all, were great ship builders, so this could be a real possibility. But the issue of food and water suplie, suggests again that its unlikely. Also Navigation, they could have gotten lost in the atlantic.

 

Irish Monks, i doubt this the most. Because being men of the church, a church that back then preeched that the world was flat, and you would fall into eternal darkness after the horizon. Makes this option very unlikely. Also, on what ships would they have saild.

 

The Norseman were great ship builders and had the nordic route over iceland and greenland, thats why they reached america, i doubt that any others that used the total sea route made it at these times.

[Pantagathus]

First, to Pertinax:

 

I believe our views on the Romans in this case is the same, we just worded it differently. Disinclination is quite the proper word.

 

In regards to the Carthaginians; along with the anecdotes of Diodorus, there are 2 other legends emanating out of Portugal in regards to Corvo in the Azores that are considered vital clues

Edited November 29, 2005 by Pantagathus

[Pertinax]

 

 

 

 

would I be correct in placing the Veneti toward the mouth of the Somme or further toward the now poldered area of the Netherlands? I remember reading this passage but never placing it into any sort of mental map.

Edited November 29, 2005 by Pertinax

[Pantagathus]

would I be correct in placing the Veneti toward the mouth of the Somme or further toward the now poldered area of the Netherlands? I remember reading this passage but never placing it into any sort of mental map.

 

The Veneti were actually of Armorica and operated mostly on the southern edge of Brittany (the north end of the Bay of Biscay).

 

I think 2 things assist with muddying the mental picture:

1. Caesar states that Belgae joined their cause

2. One tends to consider them a linear obstacle to Caesar's drive towards Britain when it was more an assualt driven by their affront to the Romans.

 

Of course this little detail helps the Veneti's case in the course of our speculative investigation as they were quite acustom to travel on the open ocean...

[Moonlapse]

If I may nitpick... megaliths like Stonehenge pre-date Druids. I think that as long as people have had sea-worthy vessels and a remote chance of reaching America, they've been discovering it. People are crazy enough to do anything.

[Pertinax]

to Pantagathus-yes it was the Belgae entry that threw me, and if they were in Biscay and used to its weather crossing the Atlantic wouldnt have been that intimidating to them.

 

to Moonlapse-possibly the druid entry might be seen in relation to the megalith builders in the way that the irish monks are intellectual inheritors of celt-iberian boat technology.And the point about doing it because it might be possible is very pertinent.

Pantagthus might be able to tell us about the long range outrigger canoe travels in the polynesian parts of the globe , ( my understanding being those guys did it for prestige and prowess as much as any practical reason -though my knowledge is rudimentary),in relation to celt-iberian capabilities .

Edited November 29, 2005 by Pertinax

[Pantagathus]

If I may nitpick... megaliths like Stonehenge pre-date Druids. I think that as long as people have had sea-worthy vessels and a remote chance of reaching America, they've been discovering it. People are crazy enough to do anything.

 

You may nitpick & I have edited out the Druid part. Though, that discussion could very well have it's own thread. There is reason to believe as Pertinax has suggested that the fundamentals of what became known as Druidism had Neolithic roots with the indigenous Europeans...

 

As to the second part of your post Moonlapse: well said!

 

Pertinax, I'm afraid that my knowledge on the Polynesian mariners is still rudimentary as well... That's about what I know as well save the fact that one of their navigation techniques for finding new islands involved reading wave patterns. They learned how the swells could indicate what direction & how far land was...

[LEG X EQ]

@Pantagathus

 

I never heard about celtic warships(could you give a link on caesars statements), i know about celts having curraghs, but a curragh gets you across the channel but not the atlantic.

 

As for the Irish monks, well, even if they were so curios and liberal, and they participated in expeditions exploring the Atlantic Ocean, if they really reached America, they must have recorded it. There are no records or evidences of such an entrance.

 

"It is also established that the ancients supplemented freshwater supplies from land with rainwater cisterns."

 

Yes, but not for 2 months.

They would have needed a second ship, just to store the water, and that takes me to the recording again. 2 warships filled with food and water, and their crews, cant just dissapear like that. There must have been atleast one person there to have recorded it.

[Sextus Roscius]

Perhaps if the expedition was funded by a private person rather than a government or religious group than if they went down with the ship along with their family, the people left related to them would assume them to have died some where in the mediteranian rather than some where in the atlantic and they simply would've been documented as drowned some where in the mediteranian and that wouldn't be the type of thing to stand out.

 

However, I don't beleive that any of the european people up until the norsemen could've gotten to the americas. But I beleive it would be possible for people in asia to get their by island hoping if they could find the islands they needed to go to.