Yeah, Have Luck Indicting Jesus

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

Since I like putting up funny and interesting, but have no blog, I'll put it here. The story is downright dumb

 

Forget the U.S. debate over intelligent design versus evolution.

 

An Italian court is tackling Jesus -- and whether the Roman Catholic Church may be breaking the law by teaching that he existed 2,000 years ago.

 

The case pits against each other two men in their 70s, who are from the same central Italian town and even went to the same seminary school in their teenage years.

 

The defendant, Enrico Righi, went on to become a priest writing for the parish newspaper. The plaintiff, Luigi Cascioli, became a vocal atheist who, after years of legal wrangling, is set to get his day in court later this month.

 

"I started this lawsuit because I wanted to deal the final blow against the Church, the bearer of obscurantism and regression," Cascioli told Reuters.

 

Cascioli says Righi, and by extension the whole Church, broke two Italian laws. The first is "Abuso di Credulita Popolare" (Abuse of Popular Belief) meant to protect people against being swindled or conned. The second crime, he says, is "Sostituzione di Persona", or impersonation.

 

"The Church constructed Christ upon the personality of John of Gamala," Cascioli claimed, referring to the 1st century Jew who fought against the Roman army.

 

A court in Viterbo will hear from Righi, who has yet to be indicted, at a January 27 preliminary hearing meant to determine whether the case has enough merit to go forward.

 

"In my book, The Fable of Christ, I present proof Jesus did not exist as a historic figure. He must now refute this by showing proof of Christ's existence," Cascioli said.

 

Speaking to Reuters, Righi, 76, sounded frustrated by the case and baffled as to why Cascioli -- who, like him, came from the town of Bagnoregio -- singled him out in his crusade against the Church.

 

"We're both from Bagnoregio, both of us. We were in seminary together. Then he took a different path and we didn't see each other anymore," Righi said.

 

"Since I'm a priest, and I write in the parish newspaper, he is now suing me because I 'trick' the people."

 

Righi claims there is plenty of evidence to support the existence of Jesus, including historical texts.

 

He also claims that justice is on his side. The judge presiding over the hearing has tried, repeatedly, to dismiss the case -- prompting appeals from Cascioli.

 

"Cascioli says he didn't exist. And I said that he did," he said. "The judge will to decide if Christ exists or not."

 

Even Cascioli admits that the odds are against him, especially in Roman Catholic Italy.

 

"It would take a miracle to win," he joked.

[Lost_Warrior]

Wow...that IS absurd. Why do people REALLY find it necessary to do this sort of thing?

[Tobias]

People find it necessary because of what sort of world we have on our hands right now; such amazing claims are allowed to be heard when even up to 20 years ago such a thing would have been dismissed out of hand. This should have been dismissed straight away from court and the bloke recommended for pyschological testing. But such absurd claims are being heard in today's world, and people are getting money from such claims. It's indicative of the times, i'm sad to say.

[Valerius]

More power to his elbow! It's about time the Christain church was made to explain why we should take any notice of that particular Middle Eastern religion as opposed to any of the others. What the sayings of 1st century AD Jewish Rabbi have to do with us I can never quite understand. It was purely by accident that it became the official state religion of the Romans, while the original church in Jerusalem was aghast at the idea of their religion being preached to gentiles. According to them Paul was "the father of all lies" and they couldn't understand why he took the message of a man he never knew to a people for whom the message was not meant. I disagree with him of the central tenet of his argument - it is plain that Jesus existed, he just wasn't talking to us.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

More power to his elbow! It's about time the Christain church was made to explain why we should take any notice of that particular Middle Eastern religion as opposed to any of the others. What the sayings of 1st century AD Jewish Rabbi have to do with us I can never quite understand. It was purely by accident that it became the official state religion of the Romans, while the original church in Jerusalem was aghast at the idea of their religion being preached to gentiles. According to them Paul was "the father of all lies" and they couldn't understand why he took the message of a man he never knew to a people for whom the message was not meant. I disagree with him of the central tenet of his argument - it is plain that Jesus existed, he just wasn't talking to us.

 

 

1)Though Jesus may not be able to directly to speak to us, his actions, sayings, and stories still provide every

generation to learn something.(Well especially for me and those who take academic courses such as faith/sac.,scripture survey, theology, and ethics. Yet I'm still in only high school, I've learned a lot.)

 

2)By the way, though you are right about the "preaching to the gentiles is wrong" view, well its only one side of a greater story about how the early Church was created and banded together. The Christians members you talk about were Jews who believed in Christ as Messiah, yet they thought it was exclusive to the Jews. But then you also have the gentiles believing in Christ too, now you can't discriminate both can't you, which is why the apostles made a compromise that Paul would preach to gentiles while the others would preach to Jews. There's more to the subject, but too time-consuming to explain everything about the history of a religion.

 

3)May I also ask where you got the "father of all lies" phrase?

Edited January 7, 2006 by FLavius Valerius Constantinus

[Ursus]

Since we're off the religion folder and on the afterhours folder, I can interject a few personal thoughts.

 

My thoughts on Jesus as a pagan are similar to Valerius' - he was a Jew, speaking to a Jewish audience, trying to reform Jewish law. Which is nice, but as a Gentile I don't care that much. Modern Christianity seems to have more to do with Saul of Tarsus than with Christ.

 

However, I think the plaintiff in this "trial" doth protest too much. Is the Italian government forcing him to be Catholic? How is his life, liberty or property threatened by his Catholic neighbors?

 

He was a former seminary student who decided he could no longer believe in his former faith. Well, that's tough, but it's no one's problem but his own. Some ex-Christians are like insecure females who break up with their boyfriends - they can't learn to let go and move on. They spend the rest of their lives being ill-spirited drama queens.

[M. Porcius Cato]

The guy who's bringing this case to court is nearly 80 years old. Let him get all off his chest so he can die happy. Living as an atheist in Italy must be a surreal experience. To understand it, you have to take this militant atheist's perspective: Your whole life you're watching people gobble up crap while telling you you're a sinner for not joining in the feast; your country is renowned as the gourmet epicenter of crap-eating; and your school-boy chum is a crap chef. Now, you're almost dead--what could be more liberating than telling the whole world that they're full of crap?

 

I know--seems crazy.

[FLavius Valerius Constantinus]

The guy who's bringing this case to court is nearly 80 years old. Let him get all off his chest so he can die happy. Living as an atheist in Italy must be a surreal experience. To understand it, you have to take this militant atheist's perspective: Your whole life you're watching people gobble up crap while telling you you're a sinner for not joining in the feast; your country is renowned as the gourmet epicenter of crap-eating; and your school-boy chum is a crap chef. Now, you're almost dead--what could be more liberating than telling the whole world that they're full of crap?

 

I know--seems crazy.

 

Yeah, you mind not describing Italy that way. (Silentium is from Italy you know)

[Primus Pilus]

Yeah, you mind not describing Italy that way. (Silentium is from Italy you know)

 

while unpleasant, I think Cato is accurately describing things only from the plaintiffs viewpoint.

[Ursus]

To not share the majority religion can be sometimes annoying and alienating. I speak from experience. To not share religion at all must be even more so.

 

But most of us here live in post-Enlightenment Western democracies. Our "oppression" is slight compared to what other people around the world experience. For instance, people in pre-invasion Afghanistan.

 

I just respectfully submit if the old man wants to hold a crusade on the excesses of organized religion, there might be spots in the world more deserving of it than Italy. A few centuries ago it might have been a different story, but (a hardline Pope notwithstanding) the Church is not a monster.

[M. Porcius Cato]

Yeah, you mind not describing Italy that way. (Silentium is from Italy you know)

 

while unpleasant, I think Cato is accurately describing things only from the plaintiffs viewpoint.

 

That's right--personally, I love Italy (especially the food!)

 

But most of us here live in post-Enlightenment Western democracies. Our "oppression" is slight compared to what other people around the world experience. For instance, people in pre-invasion Afghanistan.

 

I just respectfully submit if the old man wants to hold a crusade on the excesses of organized religion, there might be spots in the world more deserving of it than Italy. A few centuries ago it might have been a different story, but (a hardline Pope notwithstanding) the Church is not a monster.

 

I know the Church isn't a monster, and I agree with you that most people in the west enjoy enormous freedom and toleration for their religious (or lack of religious) views. I'm just trying to project the plaintiff's frustration for the benefit of those who might have never considered what that frustration might be.

[Valerius]

The "father of all lies" quote comes from a book called "Jesus, The Evidence." - I'm afraid I can't remember the name of the author. I have, in the past, devoted a considerable amount of time to the study of early Christianity, Islam, Judaism and other middle eastern religions and was struck by two things - first, how closely they resemble each other and, second, how nonsensical they are. The roots of Christianity go back a long way and can be traced from early Mesopotamia in "The Epic of Gilgamesh," through ancient Egypt, especially from the heretical teachings of Akhenaten, the worship of Uzura-Mazdah in Persia and on to Jewish religious thought. As a clue to how all this relates you only have to consider the origins of our name for God - Jehovah. The Jewish version is Yahweh, the Arabic version is Allah, the Roman version was Jupiter or Jove - all having the same liguistic root. Christianity evolved in the same way as our name for God, from a venegeful and rather primitive God (he even had a wife in very early Jewish religious texts), to the more forgiving God of the New Testament. Once you begin to see where Christianity, Islam and Judaism have their common roots and how they have diverged fron one another as people's thinking has changed, you can see all these religions as the artificial constructs that they are. Interesting from an historical point of view, but having very little to tell us today.

[Sextus Roscius]

While I'm a hard atheist, I don't think what this man is doing is possible, though Cato's explaination from the plaintiff's persepctive is very accurate and if I remain an Atheist up till that age, I might be driven to do something just as unlikely to win.

 

Though, thats the way the world is, and the Italian government can't risk having this trial. Besides, I find it immpossible for the trial to work, since the "Impartial" jury can in no way be impartial becuase in matters of religion you've got to have some opinion on it. Becuase of a large majority of Italians being Catholic, I'm assuming that the jury will be largely catholic, and I doubt that their opinions on the existance of christ is going to waver becuase of the words of a 80 year old atheist.

 

Just thinking....

[Moonlapse]

Logic vs Mysticism... you can't reason and win against those who hold faith above rational thought. Luigi Cascioli will burn in hell.

[P.Clodius]

People find it necessary because of what sort of world we have on our hands right now; such amazing claims are allowed to be heard when even up to 20 years ago such a thing would have been dismissed out of hand.

"Amazing claims"? What is more amazing, the fact that a guy can raise himself from the dead, walk on water, turn water into wine, or that a billion people believe this crap? I think MORE people should sue god, maybe it'd lead to less idiocy!