The Triarii

[Furius Venator]

The hoplite spear was 8 feet (later 12 feet perhaps) in length. The two handed pike was considerably longer of course.

 

The spear used by the triarii was a one handed thrusting spear about 8 feet in length.

 

The Romans utilised a hoplite-style system (spear armed close order infantry supported by light troops) until they adopted the hastati/principes/triarii system. There were no Roman spearmen in the post-Marian army.

[Germanicus]

I've read it, thanks for the suggestion though!

 

Which - Goldsworthy or Polybius ?

 

Anyways, I'm not talking about the hastati and principes era, I am talking about the legionary era.

 

The era you refer to, after the Legion reforms doing away with the Principes and Hastati - also did away with the Triarii, so what are you talking about ?

 

Even though they could be used in battle, their best function like any other spearman was to take down on coming cavalry.

 

Please, I beg you, give me a source or book of any description to back up this point.

 

During the legion era, they were a force, and unbeatable but only going forward. If a legion was attacked from the sides or the rear it spelled great trouble for them.

 

As already mentioned - they did not exsist in the era you speak of. (Post Marius)

 

I must say though, the hoplite spearman thing is different. The triarii spears are around 8" while the hoplites is the minimum 18."

 

If it was Goldsworthy you read, how did you fail to read this:-

 

"Unlike the hastati and principes the Triarii were equipped with a long hoplite spear instead of the Pilum although otherwise they were armed in the same way as their colleagues with the Gladius and body shield."

 

As I said the phalanxe was brought over by the Ptolomies and the hoplite was a specialty of Greece, and Greece only. The triarii may have had some similar characteristics, but the hoplite was a copyright of the Greek military.

 

I am not saying that the Triarii were the same as Greek Hoplites. What has been put forward is evidence that 1- They carried a hoplite style spear, and 2 - That they may have fought in Hoplite fashion, forming a spear wall. You so far have presented no evidence to the contrary. But I live in hope and would be interested if you could find some.

[stafford1069]

So, what were the reasons for Marius doing away with them ?

 

That's an interesting question Germanicus......Anyone have an answer or theory ?

 

I think it maybe this: From memory a century of triarii would have 80 men equipped with 80 thrusting (shock) spears and a sword. Like any good hoplite. Across a legion (2x Triarii century's per cohort = 160 shock spears; multiply by 10 for cohorts (I know I'm fudging it for the 1-st Cohort) = 1,600 shock spears. Re-equip them as pila/sword infantry and the numbers work out at 3,200 missiles carried by the triarii, who would be carrying two pila each. These would be in addition to the 6,400 missiles carried by the hastatii and principes. Also velites carried 5 missiles each.

 

The main reason I think is that triarii equipped with thrusting spears are a defensive unit in essence. While being re-equipped as missile/sword troops makes them an offensive unit in essence. Giving the legion commander three sticks to hit the enemy with: The hastata. The Principes AND the Triarii. After all it's hard to be a live barbarian with an extra 3,200 pila sticking in you.

[caldrail]

What I want to know is why Marius, half a century before J Caesar, did away with the Triarii and their hoplight equipment.

 

It was expedient. Raising a standard consular army requires that veterans are available as well as raw recruits. Marius was in a position where he was sent to relieve a commander in the field, without senatorial approval. Therefore he needed a way of raising troops to a required standard and he thought it easier to standardise a trend already existing in roman legions where the Hastatii, the raw recruits, were becoming the predominant part of troops available. Without having to fuss over details of equipment and organisational status, it was simpler to recruit en-masse and equip them with arms readily available and with expertise on tap to train them.

Edited September 4, 2007 by caldrail