ASCLEPIADES Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 (edited) Salve, Guys! I think that the concept of religious tolerance and freedom as individual human rights was virtually unknown to the ancients; it would probably had been considered nonsense by most of them, irrespectively of their creed. This concept is a relatively recent developement,HERE is a very good debate about this issue in the BBC's "In Our Time". Edited July 16, 2007 by ASCLEPIADES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Caesar Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 Isn't religion - any religion - just a way of getting people and their social habits to tow the line with one person's belief that life and teachings should be lived and taught his/her way? There is no real religion and no one religion that is the true definition of the word. No religion can claim to be the founder of all religions and that others are false. To talk of Catholocism being the true faith is indeed a false premise to start with. Paganism came before that and goodness knows how many other sects before that over thousands of years. Just because one guy comes up with a story about how wonderful another is and that his teachings should be followed by all is pretty odd really. Yes, the events may have taken place surrounding the Romans and one man meeting an untimely death, but to say he was the son of God... just picture yourself in those times and ask yourself... "Is he really? What proof do I have? Is this a story made up to make us follow one man's dream?". In troubled times it may be true that people need a figurehead to follow. While Rome is at its height and no-one really has a chance to overthrow them militarily then what can one be involved in that may amass an 'army' to challenge Rome at its heart? Oh yes... it's big on belief systems and their folk worship their Gods of many talents... hmmm... let's say we invent ONE God and create a story around one man who could by some miracle be his son... see where this is going? It's so easy!!! As the Romans persecute Christians it is going to be a very simple task to bring folk to their belief system. As it gets larger then more and more gets added to the story to make it more believable and followers, who are gullible enough, will swallow it. That's human nature. Before you know it you have a system in place that gives credence to your own position and beliefs. To give it more of a chance to run efficiently money is asked for and donations pour in because folk believe in you. Trouble is with this system is that for the last two thousand years the Catholic Church, and others I may add too, have asked for donations to help in their existence but where has this money gone? I see churches all over the world getting larger and grander by the minute andsome are more than mega rich. The Catholic Church, for example, are huge land and property owners. This is a fact - but why? Why do they need to own shopping complexes and other properties and land? Where is this helping the poor around the world? The very folk that they claim to want to help and who cross over to their faith are giving money to the church for it to be spent elsewhere. This church is not the only one doing this and in no way do I single them out. I use it as a point only. Religion in general has been the cause of a vast amount of wars and will continue to be so until they really do start to help people of ALL denominations and stop looking after number one and stop saying stupid things like we are the only real religion. How on earth would they know that? Were they there when all this stuff kicked off? No! Were the stories passed down with proof that these things they believe in really happened? No! So why calim a 'truth' when they really haven't got a clue? Some will quote the Bible as being the ipso facto book on all matters religious. Well, good for them. Except that it contains so many contradictions that the rest of it has to be taken 'lightly' until proof is obtained. What IS religion anyway? Can anyone define EXACTLY what the TRUTH is and can anyone prove that God and Jesus existed at all? This is going to seem extreme but what happens if we have a huge war that virtally destroys everyone and everything? Then after several years pass by a few books are found depicting mythological heroes. Will these become the new Gods and new basis for religion because the 'real' Gods are forgotten? I know a lot of the above text may seem controversial and some of you may want to tke me to task and prove me 'wrong' but I do not hold any religious values or beliefs but am of a particular religious denomination. This I keep to myself but if I did tell you you would be surprised!! No points for guessing as it stays with me.... I make the above remarks only for debate so don't think me an athiest or whatever because I speak of the above. I put these comments to stimulate and offer a different perspective. And now my fingers hurt!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Augusta Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 Nothing to add, AC. My only comment on religion is the following: Man created God in his own image. I will never change my belief in that. They could put it on my gravestone if they like (although I'd prefer a nice quote from Shelley!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted July 19, 2007 Report Share Posted July 19, 2007 Isn't religion - any religion - just a way of getting people and their social habits to tow the line with one person's belief that life and teachings should be lived and taught his/her way? ... What IS religion anyway? ... Any more guesses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ursus Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 Salve, Guys! I think that the concept of religious tolerance and freedom as individual human rights was virtually unknown to the ancients; it would probably had been considered nonsense by most of them, irrespectively of their creed. This concept is a relatively recent developement,HERE is a very good debate about this issue in the BBC's "In Our Time". Cyrus the Great disagrees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlapse Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 Isn't religion - any religion - just a way of getting people and their social habits to tow the line with one person's belief that life and teachings should be lived and taught his/her way? ... What IS religion anyway? ... Any more guesses? Here's my take: Religion is basically ideology. Ideologies can be collectivist or individualist. What I mean is, the same ideology can be a means to homogenize and control others or it can be something a person has accepted by their own judgement which gives them a sense of purpose or fulfillment. No one can ultimately prove their ideology, there is a certain measure of faith in almost every abstract thing that you believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 Cyrus the Great disagrees Gratiam habeo, U! I'm impressed. You've been really busy. But reading carefully the article, I don't find evidence that Cyrus II the great disagreed at all with this statement: Salve, Guys! I think that the concept of religious tolerance and freedom as individual human rights was virtually unknown to the ancients; . Certainly the title ("The World's First Charter of the Human Rights") suggests it; but in the article itself I found no clue of which was Cyrus conception: religious freedom/tolerance as an individual right (like nowadays) or as a collective right ("cuius regio, eius religio", like the Peace of Westfalia in 1648). Now, judging from what I know about the History after Cyrus, the religious freedom of the Jews (and presumably other Persian citizens too) was of the Westfalia way; the Jewish state has total freedom to select the religious ideas and rules that it was going to impose to each individual; vg, Chapter 10 of the Book of Ezra, where the Jews were compelled to send away their foreign wives. I will be really glad if you let me know your opinion about all this stuff. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 I don't think there's any real problem in whether the adherents of any particular religion believe theirs to be the "one true faith", and that they're on the fast track to heaven because they've signed up with the winning team. Well, isn't that special -- for them? Obviously, they must believe that their religion is the "true" religion, else what would be the point of belonging to it? The problem is when folks also believe that they are inherently more moral than their neighbors, by virtue of the fact that they say their prayers differently from the way their neighbors say theirs, or that they refrain from eating certain foods, or that their particular religion has a longer pedigree than the religion of their upstart neighbors. How can a person who is convinced of his religion's moral superiority not also feel a compelling duty to insist that others behave in accordance with what his religion teaches to be "best" for all of society? From such a mentality comes blue laws and (to a greater degree) forced religious conversion and the establishment of theocracies. The Catholic Church's morality -- particularly on issues of birth control, homosexuality, polyamory, etc. -- is not what I would care to have imposed upon me. It may be perfectly fine for Catholics, and I've no problem whatsoever with Catholics living the way that Catholics ought to live. I've only a problem when the rest of us are expected to live the way that Catholics ought to live. -- Nephele This sort of thing is the reason why I dislike organised religion. It imposes behaviour, practises, and education on people regardless of individual desires. The politics quickly follow as any organisation with sort of influence is going to attract politically minded people. Christianity, it might be remembered, very nearly achieved a pan-european theocracy toward the end of the 11th century. Its a sobering thought given the way most religious governments behave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Caesar Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 Why on earth do folk everywhere revert back to all those folk from ancient times who are supposed to have written the evidence for God and anyone else they care to imagine? We have absolutely NO PROOF whatsoever that these 'tales/stories' are true. We have NO PROOF that the events took place that are spoken about worldwide. We have NO PROOF that the likes of these chaps like Cyrus the Great spoke level headed or just decided to make things up as he went along. That may sound strange but in the context of reality we cannot say for literal evidence that what he or anyone else says is the 'truth'. It is impossible. Isn't it weird that every religious argument takes us back to when this great guy said this and that wonderful chap did this and that evil woman knew no better and one wise guy should rule the world and tell us all what to do and follow him in a big building full of gold ornaments and treasures beyond belief etc etc etc? Why do we quote those folks chapter and verse? What's the point? It isn't stated ANYWHERE that these books or scrolls or whatever you point to are the 'truth'. So why keep referring back to them? What is really required is good solid evidence that is unreputable. This can be in the form of an archaeological dig that uncovers GENUINE works from the period that ACCURATELY describe people and events without question. ONLY then should we maybe begin to allow others to believe a particualr doctrine or whatever. Personally, I couldn't care less. Religious debate will go on for thousands of years yet and what will have changed for mankind in that time? Nothing!! Absolutely nothing. The same quotes and stories will be told and so on.... these forums will be bigger and bolder maybe and we won't be here but others can carry on this debate then but to what purpose? Oh, I forgot, the second coming may have taken place!! The great one will have risen from the dead and we should all bow in wonder!! The great one being? Could it be Augustus Caesar himself? Could it be Posh and Becks? Oh hang on - it couldn't be - there's two of them!! But do you see the point? If you have a blinkered view on religion then that's an issue I won't go into. There's no talking to those folk. The Bible is supposed to be the BIG book.... contradictions and tales that cannot possibly be true are told in there... so now where IS the truth. Oh - don't forget - the Bible even mentions UFO's!!! So do we now believe that all Christians and Bible followers also believe in aliens? Well, they must do if the Bible is correct!!!! "We live in exciting times!!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Caelius Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) This sort of thing is the reason why I dislike organised religion. It imposes behaviour, practises, and education on people regardless of individual desires. Correction: It imposes indoctrination, not education. Its a sobering thought given the way most religious governments behave. Which is why I hope the next 549 days pass quickly. Edited July 20, 2007 by Marcus Caelius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 Yea , it is written in the Book of Cyril thus: "There shall, in that time, be rumours of things going astray, erm, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things wi-- with the sort of raffia work base that has an attachment. At this time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight o'clock. Yea, it is written in the book of Cyril that, in that time, shall the third one..." No wonder the Church got so worked up about Brian, this is how every sermon I heard at school sounded in my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metro99 Posted July 20, 2007 Report Share Posted July 20, 2007 This sort of thing is the reason why I dislike organised religion. It imposes behaviour, practises, and education on people regardless of individual desires. Correction: It imposes indoctrination, not education. Its a sobering thought given the way most religious governments behave. Which is why I hope the next 549 days pass quickly. Marcus Caelius, What is the significance of "549 days"? You've piqued my curiosity. By way of reference, I was raised a very strict Catholic during the 1960s (partially pre-VC II). In fact, it wasn't called the Catholic Church, it was the One True Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church. Ten years of stern schooling (including Dominican nuns and Franciscan brothers), grim memorization of the sixth grade Baltimore Catechism, three-hour fasting before communion on Sundays, and terrifying confessions in darkened churches leave an indelible impression on a child. I didn't meet my first Protestant until I was about nine or ten. They had just moved into the house next door and I saw them through the bushes in my front yard. To this day I still remember thinking, "My god, they look just like Catholics!" I was astonished, Protestants didn't have horns! In fact, I became best buddies with their four children. Now that I can look back on these memories with middle-aged sensibilities I see that religion (at least the highly organized variety) is a double-edged sword with a capacity for both good and mischief. As for Pope Benedict XVI's curious announcement, I believe Il Papa should devote less time to waving the Vatican flag and more time to addressing and resolving the disgraceful sexual behavior of (some of) its clergy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASCLEPIADES Posted July 21, 2007 Report Share Posted July 21, 2007 What is the significance of "549 days"? You've piqued my curiosity. Salve, M! Only for the record: after 549 days, it will be ... January 19, 2009 AD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Caelius Posted July 21, 2007 Report Share Posted July 21, 2007 Its a sobering thought given the way most religious governments behave. Which is why I hope the next 549 days pass quickly. Marcus Caelius, What is the significance of "549 days"? You've piqued my curiosity. At the time I wrote, there were 549 days until a new president is sworn in. I have a key chain fob that is counting down the days, hours, minutes and seconds until Bush is out of office. I hope that the national government will then become a bit more secular and a bit less "faith-based." By way of reference, I was raised a very strict Catholic during the 1960s... I was raised Lutheran in the '50s and '60s. Went to a fundamentalist Lutheran high school in another city (my choice, not my parents) in preparation for going into the ministry. This is, oddly, where I took my first steps toward non-belief. I somehow got drafted onto a "literary performance" team, and my price for joining was that we perform a bit from the book I had just read, "Inherit the Wind." I have no idea how that one slipped by the team's faculty adviser, an ordained minister. Things progressed from there until, now, I am quite literally a card-carrying critical thinker. For more, Google the "James Randi Educational Foundation," enter the forums and look for "Beady." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted July 24, 2007 Report Share Posted July 24, 2007 Pope Benedikt is the CEO of Catholic Inc. a company that is in the business of getting souls, just like Protestant Inc. , so obviously he has to claim that their product is superior to that of Protestant Inc. Its business after all... cheers viggen (catholic) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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