Vibius Tiberius Costa Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 I'm back with another few questions. Did the scutum have an iron (or any other metal for that matter) rim and was the bottom edge sharpened to stab down on feet. I have heard this. Because of the way a maniple works, you protected the man on your letf with your shiled and you were protected by the man on your right but what about the man on the furthest right, was he a particuarly skilled fighter to be given no protection? Centuries or maniples or whatever were in rectangular shapes, right? so shouldn't a few of the enemy slip imbetween and the lines split or is this a multimedia myth? Did the Optios use their staff's in battle? Where were the pila kept before being thrown? A bit gruesome, but when the mangled bodies began to pile up, didn't the enemy have a height advantage so in battle did the legion slowly step backwards to avoid this or step forward? When was the drop to the knee, cover the body and stab up into the groin technique first used? Did the triarii have a gladius and dagger as well as the hasta? That'll do again.............for now vtc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 Did the scutum have an iron (or any other metal for that matter) rim and was the bottom edge sharpened to stab down on feet. I have heard this. The ones I've seen had a metal rim (or else they were painted gold...I've never gotten a truly up-close look at one) however I haven't seen any references to sharpening the bottom. It's just not practical to do so; for one, in order to use the shield in that manner you would have to let your guard down which is not something any soldier wants to do. For another thing, the position in which the scutum is held would make such a maneuver awkward at best and finally, having a sharpened portion of your shield, one would think, would cause greater danger to yourself and your comrades rather than the enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pertinax Posted August 22, 2007 Report Share Posted August 22, 2007 The scutum doesnt really need to carry a sharp edge, just a defined one. A smart blow down into the shins would incapacitate anyone without greaves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted August 23, 2007 Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 (edited) Did the scutum have an iron (or any other metal for that matter) rim and was the bottom edge sharpened to stab down on feet. I have heard this. The manufacture of scuta probably varied, but given the lack of strength of a wooden edge regarding sword blades, I would expect the rim to have some sort of metal sheath even if only a thin piece of metal. Sharpened? Not as a matter of official policy, but I wouldn't be suprised if some soldiers did that. There are disadvantages to doing this - its possible to drop the shield onto your own foot. Because of the way a maniple works, you protected the man on your letf with your shiled and you were protected by the man on your right but what about the man on the furthest right, was he a particuarly skilled fighter to be given no protection? no, you didn't protect the man on your left. Your shield protected you and your own left side. The man on the right had an open 'weapon' side and therefore was less protected there. No, the man on the right side was simply unlucky to part of the formation there. Getting your best men on the right is perhaps wasteful and over-complex in practice. The romans were very keen by policy to protect their best men until the last moment, preferring the majority of casualties to be taken from the novices. Centuries or maniples or whatever were in rectangular shapes, right? so shouldn't a few of the enemy slip imbetween and the lines split or is this a multimedia myth? Its not a myth, just exaggerated. In any case, the gap is not a safe place to be in any standard 4:3:3 quincunx formation, because the gaps are protected by an overlapping unit behind, thus the gaps can easily become traps for the unwary enemy. Did the Optios use their staff's in battle? ???? no, they used swords like everyone else. Where were the pila kept before being thrown? In the soldiers hand. A bit gruesome, but when the mangled bodies began to pile up, didn't the enemy have a height advantage so in battle did the legion slowly step backwards to avoid this or step forward? There is no height advantage in bodies on the ground. Stepping on a body is not a secure foothold and almost every soldier would instinctively try to step over. Notice that roman soldiers were trained to haul their own wounded men back where-ever possible, and the rising pile of bodies assumes that both sides remain fighting flat out in one place. Inevitably one side or another will tend to give ground, although Appian describes a fight between romans during a civil war where the combatants keep pulling back due to exhaustion before rushing in again, neither side willing to be the ones to flee. When was the drop to the knee, cover the body and stab up into the groin technique first used? I'm not aware this practice was standard. There is a danger that a soldier who performed this manoever might find himself pushed over or beaten down by an enemy attack. It may well be that some legionaries did things like this, but remember doing so is a fairly athletic exercise and the soldier must rise to his feet again afterward with all his arms and equipment carried. He'd soon tire himself out doing so. Edited August 23, 2007 by caldrail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaius Paulinus Maximus Posted August 23, 2007 Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 Did the Optios use their staff's in battle? OK, picture the scene.... The evening before battle..... Centurion : Salve! Optio. Optio :Salve! Centurion. Centurion : Are you looking forward to tomorrows battle? Optio : Certainly am sir! Centurion : Are all your weapons sharpened and polished and ready to inflict the utmost damage to those six foot tall axe wielding barbarians? Optio : Nah didn't bother sir, no point. Centurion : Why's that then! Optio : I'm just going to hit them with my stick sir! Sorry VTC, couldn't resist! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted August 23, 2007 Report Share Posted August 23, 2007 I'm just going to hit them with my stick sir! ROFLMAO!!! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vibius Tiberius Costa Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Well Your point is well taken. It seemed to make sense at the time. Today seems to be insult me day vtc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted August 25, 2007 Report Share Posted August 25, 2007 Because of the way a maniple works, you protected the man on your letf with your shiled and you were protected by the man on your right but what about the man on the furthest right, was he a particuarly skilled fighter to be given no protection? no, you didn't protect the man on your left. Your shield protected you and your own left side. The man on the right had an open 'weapon' side and therefore was less protected there. No, the man on the right side was simply unlucky to part of the formation there. Getting your best men on the right is perhaps wasteful and over-complex in practice. The romans were very keen by policy to protect their best men until the last moment, preferring the majority of casualties to be taken from the novices. This isn't strictly correct according to Vegetius, who records that the first cohort (double strength unit with the elite men of the legion) was always posted on the right side of the line in order to safeguard the flank. Thats the only source that suggests this happened, and it must be pointed out that Vegetius was writing long after the legion of this size had been superceded, and that the man himself had little military experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted August 25, 2007 Report Share Posted August 25, 2007 Well Your point is well taken. It seemed to make sense at the time. Today seems to be insult me day I'm sorry, I didn't mean any insult. GPM's little scenario was just to funny. It is a reasonable question...I assume if the Optio carried his staff into battle he would use it, just like he'd use anything else. I don't believe the staff was carried into battle though; it was likely left at camp in favor of having that hand available to wield a sword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 I'm not sure the optio carried a 'staff' as you seem to understand it. They did carry a vine staff for punishing soldiers, such as those talking in formation or those dropping out of the march. Whilst such a staff might cause considerable discomfort, I'm not sure it was much use on the battlefield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted August 26, 2007 Report Share Posted August 26, 2007 Well, right. That's what I meant, I assumed that's what VTC was talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DecimusCaesar Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 There are some suggestions that the Optio used the staff to keep the back of the maniple in formation, but this is just an idea (more in common with 18th century officers with pikes making sure the men's backs were straight) rather than an accepted fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vibius Tiberius Costa Posted August 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 Well, right. That's what I meant, I assumed that's what VTC was talking about. Indeed it was what i was talking about, although I now can see it is baloney vtc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldrail Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 There are some suggestions that the Optio used the staff to keep the back of the maniple in formation, but this is just an idea (more in common with 18th century officers with pikes making sure the men's backs were straight) rather than an accepted fact. Its partly right. The centurion is too busy leading from the front so his second-in-command, the optio, must ensure that the men remain in formation whilst the centurion is busy stabbing barbarians. I doubt he used a vine staff on the battlefield - he might require his sword without warning, and the use of a flogging instrument isn't necessarily going to achieve anything positive in this situation. Now thats my interpretation of roman centurial command, so its open to debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost_Warrior Posted August 27, 2007 Report Share Posted August 27, 2007 Its partly right. The centurion is too busy leading from the front so his second-in-command, the optio, must ensure that the men remain in formation whilst the centurion is busy stabbing barbarians. I doubt he used a vine staff on the battlefield - he might require his sword without warning, and the use of a flogging instrument isn't necessarily going to achieve anything positive in this situation. Now thats my interpretation of roman centurial command, so its open to debate. He could always just use his sword. Being poked in the back with a sword would achieve roughly the same effect as being hit with a staff although I'm not sure that effect in either case would be beneficial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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