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Nephele

Most Influential Gentes of the Republic

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You are right -if you are going to do statistics you need to use the same parameters. Here is a list of consuls and consular tribunes from 509 - 27BC

 

Great--this is a valuable piece of information. Nephele has posted the number of magistrates per family (thus, G. Marius would count only once under Maria); this lists the number of consular magistracies per family (thus, G. Marius would count six times under Maria). Once we get the number of consular magistrates per family, we can begin the statistics again.

 

Something else occurred to me, regarding this additional list. To bring Ullfig's list within the original limits of 509 BCE - 31 BCE, I see we'd have to eliminate eight consulships from his list (from 30 BCE to 27 BCE). Pompeius, do you know whether the Emperor Augustus was included in the Julia gens for the purpose of Ullfig's list? In which case, Julius would be reduced by 4, Licinius by 1, Appuleius by 1, and Vipsanius by 2.

 

EDIT: Whoops. I see by your note in your last posting that you'd already thought of reducing the stats, Pompeius. But not back to 31 BCE?

 

-- Nephele

Edited by Nephele

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I'm sorry, I had hoped I had adjusted the list to 31BC, I obviously didn't express it well. Actually eight regular consulships and 4 suffect consulships, a total of 12, need to be deleted to have the list show consuls to 31BC vice 27 (see the adjusted numbers in parenthesis on the list of gens - thus 'Iulius" shows 29 consulships minus 4 held 30-27BC = 25).

The consuls 30-27BC were:

Imp Caesar Divi Filus (Octavian) (cos 30 29 28 27) (minus 4 Iulii)

M Licinius Crassus (cos 30)(minus 1 Licinius) - the grandson of the triumvir

C Antistius Vetus (cos suffectus 30)(minus 1 Antistius)

M Tulliius Cicero (cos suffectus 30)(minus 1 Tulliius) - the son of the orator

L Saenius(cos suffectus 30)(delete Saenius-one of the 58 names that appear only once - thus not on the list)

Sex Appuleius (cos 29)(minus 1 Appuleius)

Paullus Valerius Messalla (cos suffectus 29)(minus 1 Valerius)

M Vipsanius Agrippa (cos second time 28 third time 27)(minus 2 Vipsanius)

Edited by Pompieus

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I'm sorry, I had hoped I had adjusted the list to 31BC, I obviously didn't express it well. Actually eight regular consulships and 4 suffect consulships, a total of 12, need to be deleted to have the list show consuls to 31BC...

 

Ah, I see. I guess I got a little confused where I read you'd written: "To get back to 27 BC delete..." You're very thorough!

 

A question to all interested in these statistics: What other magistracies would you say might also be included for these purposes? Praetor? Aedile? Tribune of the Plebs? Quaestor? Censor? These are some of the magistracies included on Broughton's annual lists, along with Consul. For some years, even Vestal Virgins are included as Roman magistracies.

 

-- Nephele

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This is a wonderful list Nephele! Far more comprehensive than any other similar list that I've seen.

 

When compiling this list, did you happen to preserve information (e.g., in a spreadsheet) about the dates of the magistracies of each magistrate? I ask because I wonder about the prominence of certain families, such as the Valerii and Fabii, who seem to be highly prominent in the early and middle republic, but much less so in the late republic. Depending on what information you preserved when generating the list, we could answer a number of interesting questions.

Marcus Porcius - does this help to illustrate the rise and fall of a gens? It is a query from my homemade database that purports to show all the Fabians who held consulships (I can never get the columns to line up!). The "No" identifies an individual sort of like like the Paully-Wissowa number in the "encyclopaedie". "Other" gives iterations, some filiation info (f=filus, n=nepos) and offices and dignities attained e.g Dictatorships, Triumphs and Ovations and designation as Princeps Senatus, and the "year" column shows the consulships held. Thus M Fabius Ambustus -son of N(?) grandson of Marcus, twice Dictator, Princeps Senatus, Triumphed and celebrated an Ovation, was consul in 360 BC (as well as 356 and 354).

Fabius

No Pnmn Nomen Cognomen Other Year

14 M Fabius Ambustis N f M n (Dict 351 321)(PS)(Tr 354/3)(Ov 360/59) 360

19 C Fabius Ambustis N f M n 358

14 M Fabius Ambustus (II) 356

14 M Fabius Ambustus (III) 354

45 M Fabius Dorso 345

86 Q Fabius Maximus Rullianus (Dict 315 301) (Cens 304) (PS) 322

86 Q Fabius Maximus Rullianus (II)(Tr 322/1 308/7 295/4) 310

86 Q Fabius Maximus Rullianus (III) 308

86 Q Fabius Maximus Rullianus (IV) 297

86 Q Fabius Maximus Rullianus (V) 295

145 Q Fabius Maximus Gurges (PS)(Tr 291/0 276/5) 292

145 Q Fabius Maximus Gurges (II) 276

180 C Fabius Licinius 273

187 C Fabius Pictor 269

193 N Fabius Pictor (Tr 266/5 II) 266

145 Q Fabius Maximus Gurges (III) 265

231 N Fabius Buteo 247

233 M Fabius Licinius 246

235 M Fabius Buteo (Cens 241)(Dict 216)(PS? ) 245

259 Q Fabius Maximus Verrucosus (Cens 230)(Dict 217 221)(PS 209) 233

259 Q Fabius Maximus Verrucosus (II) (Tr 233/2) 229

259 Q Fabius Maximus Verrucosus (III) (suf) 215

259 Q Fabius Maximus Verrucosus (IV) 214

303 Q Fabius Maximus Q f 213

259 Q Fabius Maximus Verrucosus Cunctator (V) 209

363 Q Fabius Labeo (Tr 188/7) 183

444 Q Fabius Maximus Aemilianus L f 145

451 Q Fabius Maximus Servilianus 142

493 Q Fabius Maximus Allobrogicus (Tr 120) 121

503 Q Fabius Maximus Eburnus Servilianus (Cens 108) 116

648 Q Fabius Maximus (suf)(Tr 45) 45

757 Paullus Fabius Maximus 11

758 Africanus Fabius Maximus 10

 

From this one might conclude that the Fabii were dominant in the mid 4th to mid 3rd centuries, recovered power during the war with Hannibal, had to adopt sons from other patrician clans to maintain themselves in the mid 2nd century but declined in the late first.(?)

I don't pretend this is exhaustive or even complete - but it gives data on the gens in one place. I have one for the Valerii too.

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Pompeius, I really like your approach to these problems: methodical, with an eye towards conducting future statistical analyses.

 

Ultimately, if we want to say something historically meaningful about influence from the data that we can gather from Broughton's Magistrates, we'd like each row to correspond to an individual with a column for: a unique identification number, praenomen, nomen, cognomen, other name(s), years of censorships, years of consulships, years of praetorships, years of aedileships, years of quaestorships, years of tribuneships, total years of imperium, patrician status, status as princeps senatus, year of ovationes, and year of triumphs.

 

From this data, we could discover what variables predicted election to various magistracies and honors. For example, in being elected consul, how much did it help to come from a patrician family? from a family that held many, few, or no prior consulships? from a family that celebrated many triumphs? were two ovations just as good as one triumph? in attaining the consulship, was it better to be a plebeian aedile or a tribune? did the effect of all these variables depend on the historical period?

 

We could also address whether some families waxed and waned in their likelihood of imperium. We could graphically depict the struggle of the orders over time through the relative dominance of the orders in the various magistracies. And we could find out whether specific laws (like the lex Licinia) or specific precedents (like M Curius Dentatus) played a larger role in accelerating the rise of the plebeian magistrate.

 

A good database of magistrates could really allow us to answer some interesting questions about Roman history.

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A good database of...

If someone needs a hand doing the db part I could do it, from a tech perspective that is....

 

I have Broughton's and can compile information from these volumes, but I'm unfamiliar with the use of spreadsheets. Hey, I see from your profile, P.Clodius, that you're in NYC? We're neighbors!

 

-- Nephele

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A good database of...

If someone needs a hand doing the db part I could do it, from a tech perspective that is....

 

Not to blow my own trumpet, I'm pretty OK with designing databases in Access, PC and Pompeius - so I'd be happy to help in this project. Like MPC says, I think it would be highly informative, and we could draw some interesting and, hopefully, useful conclusions from such a database.

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A good database of...

If someone needs a hand doing the db part I could do it, from a tech perspective that is....

 

Not to blow my own trumpet, I'm pretty OK with designing databases in Access, PC and Pompeius - so I'd be happy to help in this project. Like MPC says, I think it would be highly informative, and we could draw some interesting and, hopefully, useful conclusions from such a database.

 

Thanks, Augusta and PC, and anyone else, for all the interest and offers of help! I've been PM'ing MPC and we've got it pretty much worked out.

 

-- Nephele

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Pompeius, I really like your approach to these problems: methodical, with an eye towards conducting future statistical analyses.

 

Ultimately, if we want to say something historically meaningful about influence from the data that we can gather from Broughton's Magistrates, we'd like each row to correspond to an individual with a column for: a unique identification number, praenomen, nomen, cognomen, other name(s), years of censorships, years of consulships, years of praetorships, years of aedileships, years of quaestorships, years of tribuneships, total years of imperium, patrician status, status as princeps senatus, year of ovationes, and year of triumphs.

 

From this data, we could discover what variables predicted election to various magistracies and honors. For example, in being elected consul, how much did it help to come from a patrician family? from a family that held many, few, or no prior consulships? from a family that celebrated many triumphs? were two ovations just as good as one triumph? in attaining the consulship, was it better to be a plebeian aedile or a tribune? did the effect of all these variables depend on the historical period?

 

We could also address whether some families waxed and waned in their likelihood of imperium. We could graphically depict the struggle of the orders over time through the relative dominance of the orders in the various magistracies. And we could find out whether specific laws (like the lex Licinia) or specific precedents (like M Curius Dentatus) played a larger role in accelerating the rise of the plebeian magistrate.

 

A good database of magistrates could really allow us to answer some interesting questions about Roman history.

 

You are probably right. When I made this database I was just fooling around trying to learn to use "ACCESS" and the only data I had was a list of consuls by year - so that's what I used to enter the data. I used the nomen as the key so I could line up all the consulships from each family via queries. Then I added what I could find from the fasti etc against the first entry of each individual. Not having Broughton I had no way to check earlier magistracies held by each man.

 

By the way can Nephele or someone post a list of patrician gens ? I have:

Aemilius, Cornelius, Fabius, Valerius, Claudius, Iulius, Servilius, Postumius, Furius, Manlius, Sergius, Sulpicius, Quinctius but Mommsen says there ewere 22 patrician families attested after 367BC and surely there are others on Nepheles list.?

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By the way can Nephele or someone post a list of patrician gens ?

 

According to Forsythe, the original patrician gentes were:

 

1. Aemilii ..... 9. Nautii

2. Claudii .... 10. Postumii

3. Cloelii .... 11. Quinctilii

4. Cornelii ....12. Quinctii

5. Fabii .... 13. Servilii

6. Furii .... 14. Sulpicii

7. Julii .... 15. Valerii

8. Manlii .... 16. Veturii

 

For discussion see here.

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Ah, thanks for that reasoning for setting the limits of this survey, MPC. I merely chose 31 BCE as the ending date because this is where my volume of Broughton's ends in its setting of that date as the end of the Republic.

 

However, for a comparison between patricians and plebians in positions of highest power, should we also consider the possibility of 445 BCE as a starting date, with the Lex Canuleia granting consular powers to the military tribunes? I'm finding members of the Sextilia, Antistia, and Trebonia plebian gentes, to name a few, as having held these consular powers.

 

-- Nephele

In fact, before the Lex Licinia of CCCLXXXVII AUC (367 BC) you find something like sixty nomina among consular and consular rank magistrates' list, most of them plebeian by Late Republican standards.

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Ah, thanks for that reasoning for setting the limits of this survey, MPC. I merely chose 31 BCE as the ending date because this is where my volume of Broughton's ends in its setting of that date as the end of the Republic.

 

However, for a comparison between patricians and plebians in positions of highest power, should we also consider the possibility of 445 BCE as a starting date, with the Lex Canuleia granting consular powers to the military tribunes? I'm finding members of the Sextilia, Antistia, and Trebonia plebian gentes, to name a few, as having held these consular powers.

 

-- Nephele

In fact, before the Lex Licinia of CCCLXXXVII AUC (367 BC) you find something like sixty nomina among consular and consular rank magistrates' list, most of them plebeian by Late Republican standards.

 

Yes, but the Sextilii, Antistii, and Trebonii were never patrician to begin with, unlike the Cassii, Iunii, and Tullii who were patrician to begin with and then by the Late Republic had become plebian.

 

 

By the way can Nephele or someone post a list of patrician gens ? I have:

Aemilius, Cornelius, Fabius, Valerius, Claudius, Iulius, Servilius, Postumius, Furius, Manlius, Sergius, Sulpicius, Quinctius but Mommsen says there ewere 22 patrician families attested after 367BC and surely there are others on Nepheles list.?

 

In addition to your list and the list of the 16 original patrician families provided by MPC according to Forsythe, I can add the following patrician gentes. Some of these had plebian as well as patrician branches, in which case I've included the cognomina which identify the patrician branches:

 

Aebutius Elva (or Helva)

Aelius

Antonius Merenda

Aquillius Tuscus

Atilius Longus

Cassius Viscellinus

Curiatius Fistus

Curtius

Foslius

Geganius

Herminius

Horatius

Iunius Brutus (later plebian along with all the other branches of the Iunii)

Lartius

Lucretius Triciptinus

Marcius Coriolanus

Menenius

Minucius Augurinus

Mucius

Papirius (Crassus, Cursor, Maso, and Mugillanus)

Pinarius

Potitius

Sempronius Atratini

Sestius Capitolinus Vaticanus

Sicinius Sabinus

Tarquitius Flaccus

Tullius Longus

Verginius (or Virginius) Tricostus

Volumnius

 

Sorry that this list is incomplete. I just threw it together now, and I'm sure I've missed some patrician gentes with their corresponding cognomina.

 

-- Nephele

Edited by Nephele

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Thanks, Primus Pilus. I'll be including the families that contributed only one member to the magistracies, in my revised list. It'll be an expanded list, because there were quite a few of these.

 

Hey there

 

In the percentages above you gave percentages in each century could you reply or PM me with a percentage spectrum of the 2nd century senators and if you had it available, please don't go to any special lengths the percentage of each family in the 2nd century. Don't go out your way but I would be most grateful if you could do this.

 

vtc

 

Hi, VTC. Broughton's doesn't list Senators specifically, but since election to magisterial offices brought one into the Senatorial class (for a lifetime seat), then the names of the magistrates could be counted as Senate representatives, too. I could give you a few names from Broughton's lists for the 2nd century, but it would be pretty time-consuming to go over each list of magistrates individually for a 100-year period to make a note of each individual name. If, when I re-do my initial list, it turns out that I'm compiling the information that way after all, I'll send you what I get. Is this for that book you're planning to write?

 

-- Nephele

 

It is, but it is definitely not necessary.

 

vtc

 

Ps I have written a third of it :suprise:

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In addition to your list and the list of the 16 original patrician families provided by MPC according to Forsythe, I can add the following patrician gentes. Some of these had plebian as well as patrician branches, in which case I've included the cognomina which identify the patrician branches:

 

Aebutius Elva (or Helva)

Aelius

Antonius Merenda

Aquillius Tuscus

Atilius Longus

Cassius Viscellinus

Curiatius Fistus

Curtius

Foslius

Geganius

Herminius

Horatius

Iunius Brutus (later plebian along with all the other branches of the Iunii)

Lartius

Lucretius Triciptinus

Marcius Coriolanus

Menenius

Minucius Augurinus

Mucius

Papirius (Crassus, Cursor, Maso, and Mugillanus)

Pinarius

Potitius

Sempronius Atratini

Sestius Capitolinus Vaticanus

Sicinius Sabinus

Tarquitius Flaccus

Tullius Longus

Verginius (or Virginius) Tricostus

Volumnius

 

Sorry that this list is incomplete. I just threw it together now, and I'm sure I've missed some patrician gentes with their corresponding cognomina.

 

-- Nephele

 

For the period before the Lex Licina, I found another 3 consular Gentes; Aternia, Romilia and Tarpeia.

Edited by ASCLEPIADES

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