The Levy of the Annual Regular Legio

[roman wargamer]

at the end of spring, the Roman senate convene to commission the annual levy of the army's legiones.

 

after a brief debate, the two oppossing group realigned their patron members,

and most senior patriarch favor the more numerous group to nominate their lead patrician family heir to lead,

 

as the commission of the new army of 4 legio is declare, the appointment of the general is chosen.

 

the baton of the new army of legio was given to the winning group, Scipio [example only]

while the lesser group representative was given the next in command,

 

only the leading patrician family heir is given the army's group of legio imperium,

which ancestor has already lead an army in the early era of Rome.

 

the appointment of the leading patrician:

 

1.Legionis Princeps

2.Legionis Princeps Vice or Alae

 

the appointment of the lesser patrician

 

as Legionis Questor

[caldrail]

Yep, you still don't understand what a legion is. The word means 'levy' and refers to the old citizen recruitment at every campaign or year of conflict. The legion is not a formal division of a structured army. Each legion was seperate, a self contained military entity that could operate as an army in its own right, although they could be grouped informally under a comman commander. Such groups were always temporary and for a specific military objective.

 

If you continue to describe the roman legion in modern terms you will run into difficulty. They did things differently to us. Their organisation wasn't about fixed ranks with responibility attached, it was about responsibility, status, and role within the legion. They did not therefore have a pyramid structure nor required one. A man was promoted to a role within the legion, not to a higher rank, and his status was derived from the role he played, not because he had achieved stripes - which didn't exist then. Arguably the centurionate had ranks within its structure, both for seniority and to provide a career path for this long term permanent junior officers who really were the backbone of legionary operations. However, there was no guaranteed promotion path into or out of the centurionate - it was a class apart.

[Gaius Octavius]

C., when the legions were grouped together under a 'common' commander, did not each groups' commander command on alternate days? For example, Varro and Paullus at Cannae.

 

"The Making of the Roman Army - From Republic to Empire"; Lawrence Keppie. This book might be helpful.

Edited April 24, 2008 by Gaius Octavius

[caldrail]

Yes, the romans did do things like that. Its wrong to believe that roman generals were part of a pyramid structure with an assigned rank - they were inviduals tasked with completion of a military venture and given the status/responsibility applicable for that reason. I don't know whether these arrangements between generals were formalised or ad-hoc by mutual agreement, but if two legions are marching together - who takes command? Its either decreed by the roman leadership, or some accomadation is made between them. Both are technically equal in status as legionary commanders although reputation and connections might swing it. A time-sharing arrangement of overall command might relieve any frustration if both adhere to the agreement.

[roman wargamer]

time element: early up to late republic; probable on most period.

 

then let us study title, rank, and function.

 

who can command all the legion in the field?

in time of war.

 

modern equivalent=commander in chief

 

first in command

dictator- a magister populi, could command all the legion in existence at a given time and place

 

second in command

vice dictator- a magister equitum, master of the horse, next in command

 

third in command

quaestores- the chief financial officer of the state, or the whole legiones

 

who can command more legion in the field?

in time of peace.

 

first in command

consul- could command all the legion in existence at a given place [ province] and time

 

second in command

pro consul- master of his horse, next in command

 

third in command

quaestores- the chief financial officer of the consular legio, comptroller

 

who give the command

 

nominated and elected by the comitia centuriata

 

imperium vested by the senate through comitia curiata

 

as Rome is already a republic at this era;

 

the power to nominate and elect belong to the representative of the people- the comitia centuriata

the legality or lex conferred now by the senate

 

what is consul?

 

a consul is literally an ambassador of Rome,

who represent it's political, military, judicial and social power; who is vested with it, if granted an imperium.

all his act is technically the act of the state or of Rome.

 

pro-consul= is a rank just below the consul.

 

a consul with imperium was all patrician.

 

a plebian can be consul but never granted an imperium or command of the whole legiones

 

what is praetor?

 

a praetor means a general

 

a praetor is the highest military tribunus with consulship power a plebs could achieved.

 

a pro-praetor is a rank just below the praetor.

[Gaius Octavius]

rw, where do the 'military tribunes' fit into your scheme?

[Primus Pilus]

Quaestors did not necessarily have command functions despite their place in the hierarchy. Their position was much more administrative in nature.

 

Additionally, the reasoning seems to be suggesting that in a time of war there was always a dictator and that consuls only assumed command in peace time. This is definitively not the case.

[roman wargamer]

rw, where do the 'military tribunes' fit into your scheme?

in peace time, tho most influential and rich plebs could be praetor.

 

but in war time; when a new army was raise, military tribunes normally command regiment or the cohors.

[caldrail]

But your still trying to paint the roman legions in modern terms. They didn't do things like we did. I'll say it again so you're clear on this....

 

The roman legion is a self-sufficient military division and army in its own right. It was NOT part of a larger formal structure, and command of armies was by arrnagement, not by fixed rules or ranks or pyramid structures. The legion of late republican times is the organised development of the very early warband culture.

[roman wargamer]

Quaestors did not necessarily have command functions despite their place in the hierarchy. Their position was much more administrative in nature.

the primary function is comptroller, but could act as acting consul in the absence of the two. agens vice consul.

 

Additionally, the reasoning seems to be suggesting that in a time of war there was always a dictator.

i never say there is always a dictator in time of war, my time element is too long to be definitive.

as each war in every epoch produce differing scenario.

in Cannae, they have two alternate equal consul, not dictator.

 

and that consuls only assumed command in peace time. This is definitively not the case.

i also never say that.

 

to be elected and conferred consulship is the first stage... and could leads later to be granted office.

it may be presumed by many that's there is only one or two consul in ancient Rome in any given time.

 

NO! the senate have many many consul that run the government, the legions and the province.

[roman wargamer]

what is the different between consul and the praetor?

 

the consul is a political title, rank and function reserved to the patrician.

while praetor is a military title, rank and function reserved to the plebians.

 

is there an exception? of course there is, if you research deep and long enough, you will know why.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

after the consul have been granted imperium to leads 4 legion.

 

he immediately assemble his client delegation to appoint his legation staff.

and begin to select his war council staff from his supporters and other interesting party.

 

the leader, consul, vice consul and the queastor.

 

legatus- (LA) of legare

to delegate such authority to other senior officer or bequaeth it's power to the deputize agens.

as consul- is hence akin to counsel of the state or high magistrate of the republic of ancient Rome.

 

the consul, then begin to appoint his delegation of Legion Legate from the patrician senatorial candidate.

 

legatus- his senior legate

laticlavius- then the patron junior legate

quaestor- and the financier client supporter, as the comptroller

 

so legatus is the legation of the consul where he delegated his authority by deputizing his agent.

 

 

later, they will appoint the military tribune from the plebians.

[caldrail]

Where exactly are you getting all this stuff?

[roman wargamer]

to keep tract of what the possible number of soldier we are talking about, I suggest refenrence system;

that will be easy for comparison to ancient Rome.

 

modern----legion equivalent - that is most probable

 

company--centuria

battlion----cohort

regiment--3 cohort or an acies line of the legio

brigade----legion

division----consular legion or two legion

2 division--2 consular legion or four legion [ legion number could be possible more ]

 

who command

 

company--captain

battlion----major or lt. colonel

regiment--colonel

brigade----general of brigadier grade 1*

division----general of major grade......2*

2 division--general of lieutenant grade,3*

4 division--general of full grade...........4*

army ------field marshall ....................5*

 

 

centuria-----------centurio

cohort-------------prefect

3 cohort ----------prefect

legion--------------legate or possible a plebs with full praetor title

consular legion---consul

2 consular legion-consul with imperium

 

more than 4 legion-consul with imperium at war, or possible a dictator

__________________________________________________________

 

so this will be the most convenient comparison

 

captain------------centurion

 

major--------------prefectus

lt. colonel----------prefectus

colonel-------------prefectus

 

 

brigadier general--legatus, a senator, or prefectus legiones- a plebian, but rich and influential enough

major general-----consul

lt. general----------consul with imperium

general-------------consul with imperium at war or dictator

 

__________________________________________________________

 

the leader, consul, vice consul and the queastor.

 

who have been granted imperium to leads 4 legion.

 

appoints his four legion legation of staff, legatus legiones is the consul legation to the legion.

 

1st legion

legatus legiones

vice legatus legiones

quaestores legiones

 

2nd legion

legatus legiones

vice legatus legiones

quaestores legiones

 

3rd legion

legatus legiones

vice legatus legiones

quaestores legiones

 

4th legion

legatus legiones

vice legatus legiones

quaestores legiones

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

the consilium plebis will be convene... to present themselves for the possible appointment to the legion.

 

the 1st legion as senior legio will be the first to choice 4 plebs for the military tribune with praetorship dignity.

the 2ndt legion as lesser senior legio will be the second to choice 4 plebs for the military tribune with praetorship dignity.

the 3rd legion as junior legio will be the third to choice 4 plebs for the military tribune with praetorship dignity.

the 4th legion as most junior legio will be the fourth to choice 4 plebs for the military tribune with praetorship dignity.

 

these process will be repeated four times until 16 candidate are chosen for the military tribune position.

 

appeal will be entertain by the consul before he grant for the final appointment of all prefectus position.

 

praefectus- (LA) someone put at the front to lead, or leader of the ancient tribal regiment

prefect could mean- general, commander, leader and mentor.

 

so prefect are plebians appointed to the military position in the legion.

 

prefectus title, rank and function could be as low as major or as high as brigadier genaral[/]

_________________________________________________________

 

the first appointment is the

 

prefectus legionis agens vice legati-

prefect of the legion acting in place of the leagate

 

the less well known but very important is the

prefectus tironum legionis- who screen the recruitment of the legiones soldier

[caldrail]

RW - you are way down a blind alley. You're trying to reconstruct the roman legion as you see it, not how it was. I'm sorry, but these list of ranks and titles bear little resemblance to what was actually going on and trying to compare that to a modern army is pointless - they organised themselves differently.

 

The modern army requires a pyramid structure (which you seem so fond of). They need to exercise command of fighting men right down to squad level, and even a dozen men are viable combat unit these days.

 

The romans fought en-masse. The lower positions of responsibility weren't necessary for control of the cohort, the basic fighing unit, which is considerably laerger than a dozen men.

 

In a modern army, if you're promoted to a rank, you can be moved to any job in the army and retain your status - its fixed by your rank.

 

In the legions, you were promoted to a job, and that gave you a certain status. If you changed jobs, your status changed with it.

 

modern----legion equivalent - that is most probable

 

company--centuria

battlion----cohort

regiment--3 cohort or an acies line of the legio

brigade----legion

division----consular legion or two legion

2 division--2 consular legion or four legion [ legion number could be possible more ]

 

who command

 

company--captain

battlion----major or lt. colonel

regiment--colonel

brigade----general of brigadier grade 1*

division----general of major grade......2*

2 division--general of lieutenant grade,3*

4 division--general of full grade...........4*

army ------field marshall ....................5*

Sorry, but all of this is complete rubbish. The romans did not organise themselves in this manner. They did not have an army. There was no coherent and formal organisation of their fighting forces as we expect today. Every legion was autonomous, its leader owing loyalty to either the senate or the emperor (or arguably, themselves sometimes).

[Primus Pilus]

Sorry, but all of this is complete rubbish. The romans did not organise themselves in this manner. They did not have an army. There was no coherent and formal organisation of their fighting forces as we expect today. Every legion was autonomous, its leader owing loyalty to either the senate or the emperor (or arguably, themselves sometimes).

 

While I agree that there was a sort of disconnect from legion to legion (at least prior to the late Republic and early Principate), there was still some uniformity in rank, responsibility and command structure. I do think RW is trying too hard to fit modern structures and customs into their Roman counterparts, but I did just want to add this slight clarification for the casual passerby:

 

A centurion was a centurion regardless of which legion he served. Each legion had up to 59 of them and each one carried their own rank and status. In theory, an individual Primus Pilus of Legion I would have held the same social status and authority as his counterpart in Legion II, but the two were not necessarily interchangeable the way that two different Colonel's would be in a modern army. In a modern army, a Colonel held that rank and authority to those below him regardless of his assignment, whereas in the Roman legion, each officer held that rank for soldiers within that legion. While a Centurion was a Centurion regardless of legion, a Centurion in Legio I had no command authority over legionaries in Legio II.