A very technical question - experts needed

[The Augusta]

Hi everyone - I need the help of all our Roman technos.

 

In reducing the hefty word count on my novel before it starts doing the rounds of agents, I have cut out the former beginning of the book and restarted the entire story from the moment of the Proscriptions. Now, I'm sorry to say this, MPC, but the first chapter deals with the nailing up of Cicero's head and hand on the Rostra. (I thought this would be a good image to symbolise the end of liberty etc.) But I've run into a very, very technical problem. Because I want to describe this event in its entirety, I need to know just how the hand would have been fixed! (I have worked out a particularly gruesome fate for his poor head, which I will not describe here, but I'm sure it would work.) I've not chosen this beginning for any gratuitous reason; I want to hit the reader immediately with the terror that swept down onto the nobility.

 

My problem is this: The ships' rams on the Rostra were made of bronze. The facade of the Rostra was made of tufa and other stone dressed with some marble. How do you nail to bronze? I'm sure it can't be done, or can it? I've researched the old rostra and where the beaks were placed etc, but I can't for the life of me understand just how something could be 'nailed' to the rams. Surely, nailing something implies that some of the structure was wood, or other such material.

 

So, does anyone have any suggestions as to how something as small as a hand could be nailed or fixed to the rams without the presence of some kind of wooden supporting structure. I will be forever in your debt.

[Maladict]

I imagine the rams were not made of solid bronze, but rather bronze-clad wood.

If sufficiently thin, you could drive a nail through it.

[M. Porcius Cato]

I imagine the rams were not made of solid bronze, but rather bronze-clad wood.

If sufficiently thin, you could drive a nail through it.

 

That's a clever solution to the local problem, but then the rams would have been nearly useless for crushing quinquiremes, which was their original intent.

 

What's the reason to think that the hands of Cicero were independently affixed? Seems to me a more tidy solution would be to tie up the hands with string and affix them to the head, which could be impaled rather properly onto anything sharp and pointy. In fact, if you don't do that, it's not clear exactly whose hands they are, which rather defeats the point.

 

OK, now I need a shower.... this era in Roman history is disgusting.

[The Augusta]

I imagine the rams were not made of solid bronze, but rather bronze-clad wood.

If sufficiently thin, you could drive a nail through it.

 

That's a clever solution to the local problem, but then the rams would have been nearly useless for crushing quinquiremes, which was their original intent.

 

What's the reason to think that the hands of Cicero were independently affixed? Seems to me a more tidy solution would be to tie up the hands with string and affix them to the head, which could be impaled rather properly onto anything sharp and pointy. In fact, if you don't do that, it's not clear exactly whose hands they are, which rather defeats the point.

 

OK, now I need a shower.... this era in Roman history is disgusting.

 

Thanks, both - and especially to MPC, who must have had to grit his teeth when writing! It is a particularly disgusting time, and that is exactly what I want to convey. I agree with MPC that bronze clad rams would not have been much use is actual ramming, and we do know that the rams that decorated the rostra were captured from actual battles.

 

I have used a form of impaling for the head (sorry, MPC) but you have now given me a very wonderful idea for what to do with the hand(s) - although I have gone with the sources who claim it was only the right hand here, which simplifies things for me. I will not induce any further nausea by forcing this upon you any further, but please accept my thanks for solving what had become a nitty problem.

[Maladict]

That's a clever solution to the local problem, but then the rams would have been nearly useless for crushing quinquiremes, which was their original intent.

 

Wouldn't that make it too heavy? It's hard to tell from the image, but it might well be hollow.

The parts that connect to the prow are more plate-like in any case, and actually show puncture marks were it was nailed to the timber.

 

Edited October 22, 2008 by Maladict

[The Augusta]

Hey - Maladict - that image was one of the ones I've been studying - that very ram. The plated bit with the holes is that part that would have fit over the jutting prow of the ship at the water line (if I've got that nautical term correct - boats are a mystery to me!), but I think the chunky bit at the end - the actual ram - would be more or less solid. And isn't this the very ram that is supposed to weigh 1-2 tons? Even if it were completely hollow, I still couldn't see a nail getting through the chunky bit (which was the bit projecting from the facade of the Rostra).

 

Thanks for going to the trouble of finding it, but as you may have read in my comment above, I have managed to solve this problem now. MPC planted a seed, and as I'm using just one hand (the right), I know what I'm going to do with it, so nails will not be necessary after all.

 

Sorry to have troubled you all with this, but it just goes to show that we can be happily going along with all the history and the research in our heads and then - Bang! - a simple technicality like this comes up.

Edited October 22, 2008 by The Augusta

[ASCLEPIADES]

Salve, Amici.

 

A not-for-the-squeamish novel by Lady A with her analysis on the end of the Roman republican liberty and the technical assistance from Maladict & MPC?

 

I can't wait any longer to read it.

[Maladict]

Hey - Maladict - that image was one of the ones I've been studying - that very ram. The plated bit with the holes is that part that would have fit over the jutting prow of the ship at the water line (if I've got that nautical term correct - boats are a mystery to me!), but I think the chunky bit at the end - the actual ram - would be more or less solid. And isn't this the very ram that is supposed to weigh 1-2 tons? Even if it were completely hollow, I still couldn't see a nail getting through the chunky bit (which was the bit projecting from the facade of the Rostra).

 

Thanks for going to the trouble of finding it, but as you may have read in my comment above, I have managed to solve this problem now. MPC planted a seed, and as I'm using just one hand (the right), I know what I'm going to do with it, so nails will not be necessary after all.

 

Sorry to have troubled you all with this, but it just goes to show that we can be happily going along with all the history and the research in our heads and then - Bang! - a simple technicality like this comes up.

 

No trouble at all, glad you found a way to solve it.

But now I'm wondering about what you said, the actual rams being the bits that projected from the rostra.

It would mean a large part of the rams would have been buried in the masonry and not have left any substantial traces as the rostra is still sporting its tufa facade mostly intact. Putting it onto the facade would create even more problems, needing some kind of framework to connect it to the tufa as well as substantial support. A metal beam driven into the rostra might do it, though. The only contemporary image I can find shows the rams attached sideways (barring mismatched perspective), which would certainly be an easier way of supporting the weight. Questions, questions.

 

Edited October 23, 2008 by Maladict

[Nephele]

In the very first chapter you have the shockingly violent scene of Cicero's head and hands being nailed to the Rostra? (Or, now, the head impaled with the hands affixed.) What a clever way to draw in those readers who will be wondering "Why was such a horrible thing done to Cicero?" -- and keep them turning those pages for more.

 

-- Nephele

[Klingan]

Well correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't it be possible to nail the hands to the tufa? it's a quite soft stone.

[Maladict]

Well correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't it be possible to nail the hands to the tufa? it's a quite soft stone.

 

Shouldn't be too much of a problem, no, although there would have been a marble facing inbetween.

 

Apparently the old rostra was demolished by Caesar to be replaced by a new version, but it wasn't completed before 42 BC.

So at the time of the Cicero episode there would have been at best a partially finished rostra.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Maladict

[The Augusta]

In the very first chapter you have the shockingly violent scene of Cicero's head and hands being nailed to the Rostra? (Or, now, the head impaled with the hands affixed.) What a clever way to draw in those readers who will be wondering "Why was such a horrible thing done to Cicero?" -- and keep them turning those pages for more.

 

-- Nephele

 

Thank you, Nephele - I hope I've done that. The first three shortish chapters are very explosive, and there's a lot of blood about - lol. I wanted to paint the vilest picture I could of Rome in December 43BC, and how terrifying it must have been to a 15 year old girl of the nobility.

 

In answer to Mal's comment regarding the demolishing of the Rostra Vetera - there is still scholarly/archaeological debate about whether the old platform was actually demolished before Caesar began his own (later finished by Gus). Sources seem to hint at the head being fixed to the Rostra Vetera. If indeed it was fixed to rams - as all sources concur - would the rostra of Caesar have had its rams in place at this early stage? Perhaps - I don't know. I have plunged in and had two rostra in my story. The Caesarian one is the focus of certain events I've described in 41BC, by which time the old rostra has fallen into disuse.

 

But even if the Rostra Vetera was half demolished, perhaps just with its rams and facade intact at this stage, I still want Cicero's head there, because the platform is from where he made his greatest speeches and it was close to the old Comitium, and I'm sure that's what motivated Antony to 'display' him there. I suppose it's not so important in the long run - the main point is the atrocity and violation carried out by the Triumvirs.

 

But thanks for all your help guys and gals - the horrible scene is written now.