Horatius

Then there is this intriguing account of the origin of the Ancile," a bronze buckler fell from heaven, which came into the hands of Numa, and a wonderful account of it was given by the king, which he learned from Egeria and the Muses. The buckler came, he said, for the salvation of the city, and must be carefully preserved by making eleven others of like fashion, size, and shape, in order that the resemblance between them might make it difficult for a thief to distinguish the one that fell from heaven." http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roma...s/Numa*.html#13 , The Ancilia really did exist,maybe the first one really was made from an iron meteorite?

And not just dictatorial types. I read somewhere that Augustus was the greatest politician that ever lived and maybe that is his true legacy. Flatter,cajole and bribe the rivals you can. Ridicule, crush or otherwise marginalize the ones you can not. Give the people bread and circuses and a patriotic hope in something larger than themselves "Imperium sine fine". He always sought to keep the illusion of the Republic and it's institutions alive even after it was long dead. It's brilliant if you can pull it off and it still works today.

Well caldrail said it much more eloquently then I can but that is what I meant. Italy even with Gaul could no longer feed Rome any more. Without North African grain the political situation in Rome would deteriorate very fast. Even a few warships could disrupt that supply especially if there is nothing to counter it. A rebellion or rogue general in Africa or Asia could shut that supply down and Augustus wouldn't have a year to get it back up before there would be chaos. "Augustus set the number of dole recipients at 200,000 in 2 B.C. (Dio 55.10.1), yet in the Res Gestae the number of recipients of his congiaria deviated from this number: "never fewer than 250,000" of "the Roman plebs" in 44, 29, 24, and 11 B.C.; 320,000 of "the urban plebs" in 5 B.C.; and in 2 B.C. "somewhat more than 200,000," http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2000/2000-02-08.html That's a lot of people!

But if Rome was challenged by a nation with real warships it would take a long time to build and man a fleet to counter it. Meanwhile Rome starves. A standing fleet would ensure this could never happen.

Maybe your thinking of this? http://www.unrv.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5408 It does say that Germanicus only recovered 2 of the 3 Eagles lost at Teutoburg but according to this "The third standard was recovered in 41 AD by Publius Gabinius from the Chauci during the reign of Claudius, brother to Germanicus" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Teutoburg_Forest That's what intrigues me, all the effort they put into these symbols, Augustus recovering the ones lost to the Parthians is another example. Everyone in the world knew what they represented, I can't believe they all just vanished with no trace

Like all Empires and Nations the business of Rome was business. You can't really have a great mercantile nation state without a fleet to protect it. Even if there were no active threats you couldn't really risk the chance that piracy or another Nation could disrupt your trade while you stopped to build a fleet to counter it. A standing fleet is well worth the cost of maintaining it.

" Bank of France Governor Christian Noyer has dubbed him a "genius of fraud" and a "computer genius," but Kerviel painted a a more mundane reality. "The techniques I used were not at all sophisticated. Any correctly installed system is capable of detecting these operations. There was no Machiavellian cunning on my part," he said, adding that he had only wanted to make money for SocGen. Kerviel described a "mattress" system of subterfuge that allowed him to hide his trades -- including his 1.4 billion euro profit at the end of last year. "Nobody had ever achieved that kind of profit before," he said, explaining that in the end he had massaged the figures to make it look like he had a profit of "just" 55 million euros. He said his managers offered him a 300,000 euro bonus for 2007, but said he wanted double that." http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080129/bs_nm/...p9Hl8MA7w5Z.3QA Curiouser and Curioser.

I know this has been brought many times but it just bewilders me.Never mind the Eagles although that's just as mystifying The only battle standard I have ever seen was a single partial cohort sign http://www.romancoins.info/a-2005-phalera%20(6).JPG . I mean these guys went to war over these standards and worshiped them. Wasn't there a temple in Rome just to house standards? What happened to them all? Surely someone must have saved a few somewhere..or maybe not. Anyone ever heard any theories on what happened to them or where they might be? I wonder if there are any archaeologists that specifically are searching for these things

I've been trying to follow this and I'm not sure I really understand what happened. This guy was making money all through 2007. The only reason they lost so much money was because they dumped all these positions on the market at once. Some are saying they crashed the markets and caused the FED rate cut. Anyone understand exactly what he was doing anyway? Are markets really that fragile and susceptible to manipulation? He was hedging his bets supposedly by using virtual companies that were nonexistent. Please someone explain lol. It's really kind of scary if the world economy is this screwed up. I'm wondering if they just ran into a person that wouldn't play ball on the whole scheme and forced their hand. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtm...ccsocgen127.xml

Here you go Spittle

I think your right Kosmo, this kid was playing with 75 Billion Dollars!! That they sold it off and only lost 7 Billion is weird. I'm not a big fan of conspiracy's but there is more to this than just Jerome Kerviel I bet.

Makes you think doesn't it. All electronic impulses lol http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080124/bs_af...me_080124210445

I agree MPC. The sheer magnitude of the obliteration of a culture that had rivaled Rome for many centuries is something that I had never really thought of before. It must have stunned the ancient world, although as was pointed out not all Romans agreed with this policy. The ideology behind it is the meat of the article though and I think Professor Kiernan does a good job there. Like I said before it is a different perspective than we usually see.

It really is an interesting article. I wish I could find the whole thing without having to register. I just had to click on the bottom link and it sent me to my local library where I just had to enter my library card #. Apparently Professor Kiernan is well known for his studies of genocide and it's ideological causes http://www.yale.edu/history/faculty/kiernan.html . Thought people might enjoy it since it is a little different perspective than we usually see.He is pretty scathing in his criticism of Cato the Elder and I like the way he ties in the Roman national epic The Aeneid. What separates Corinth from Carthage is that the Carthaginian culture was destroyed.

Found this interesting article by Ben Kiernan online http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summa...86-21589350_ITM if you have a library card you can read the whole thing without registering. Interested in what others think of this. Was it the shame of the Republic ? Was the third Punic war just a sham and entirely unjustified?

ROFL if the didn't they should have! Caesar on a camel seems somehow oddly fitting. I did find this in Wiki however, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dromedarii make of it what you will.

Well according to this, my source (whatever it was) is way off "Although true camels are considered Old World forms, they evolved and diversified in North America for most of their evolutionary history. Camels migrated over the Bering Straits Land Bridge into the Old World only 5-million years ago, some 40 million years after their first appearance in the fossil record. Llamas, now solely restricted to South America, also evolved in North America. They reached South America by crossing the Panamanian Land Bridge about 2-1.5 MA years ago, when it was newly formed. North American llamas and camels subsequently went extinct 11,000 years ago along with many other large mammals. Today, llamas are found in the high plains (the Altiplano of the Andes Mountains) of South America, as well as in some areas of Paraguay. True camels are restricted to areas in northern China and the Arabian regions, however they are now mostly domesticated, with few wild populations left." http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fossilhall/Library/Llama/Llama.htm I guess the humps came later

I guess we will never know for sure barring the discovery of some lost document. It is interesting to speculate though just why the Legions were so effective for so many centuries.Too bad they didn't have unit historians in the Legions specifically to document their campaigns,maybe they did but I just don't know about it hehe.

Many thanks, my friends. I had a nice quiet little party between myself, my laptop and a few glasses of whisky. I will be a little more active and accessible during the next year! Thanks again. LOl Let Perry croon you a tune,remember this?One of the funniest bits i have I have ever seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHjXio9ywiA Happy Birthday!

Why would they have to halt? I envision the second rank taking over smoothly with fresh men enabling the front rank to retire to the rear to recover. In cases like Cannae or Adrianople they were apparently packed so close together due to being surrounded they couldn't even raise their weapons so obviously this wouldn't work.This takes timing and practice but I assume they were well drilled in these tactics if they indeed fought that way. Always having fresh troops at the front ranks would seem to be a distinct advantage though. The goal of ancient warfare was to get your enemy to rout,tired men (and surrounded) men rout.

Bactrian Camels (the 2 humpers) live on the steppes of Asia where it is very cold. http://www.ultimateungulate.com/Artiodacty...bactrianus.html From what I have read llamas migrated via the West Indies land bridge now submerged but open when Central America was submerged about 50 million years ago.

llamas are Camelids

Actually the only reason I replied to this thread is that I've always been intrigued by that battle scene. If I remember right they say in the narration that it is based on the latest research by someone, but I can't make out the name. It is so different than the usual Roman film battle scene that it must have had some purpose to it. There is a lot of dramatic license in HBO Rome but there is a lot of really good historical tidbits too. I think they strive to be accurate when they could.

It does look cool doesn't it I agree that if any one could have pulled it off it would have been the Romans. I think the machinelike switching of the front ranks at short intervals would have been a distict advantage just because of the fatigue factor. Especially against barbarian armies . I remember reading somewhere where the Legions drilled every day with overweighted shields and swords. A whistle seems logical and remember the sound in ancient warfare would be much less than modern warfare and if you were trained to react and listen for it maybe a whistle is not so far fetched. It is strange though that we know so little about the actual tactics of the Legions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7177688.stm Thought some might have an interest in this. I have been watching and photographing Bald Eagles along the Mississippi River close to my home lately, where they winter. No Golden Eagles here sadly but easy to see how these magnificent creatures are in the heralds and mythos of so many nations.