[Ancient History and Modern Cinema]

Not necessarily. They're not going to keep hundreds of items for a single movie. Most large screen epics require costumes to be made for it (equipment too) and if they can source stuff already xisting, they will use it. If that means they cut a corner or two, then so be it. Large budget productions don't have bottomless pockets - a major film can easily run over budget if tight control is not kept.

 

Indeed, Ridley scott mentions in Kingdom of Heaven he usually likes to use pre-existing arrangements and that he was devastated when he couldn't use some of the breatplates from gladiator

 

vtc

[Vesuvius]

Are their any good paintings/mosaics etc. of the Roman era Vesuvius. Because that would be great.

 

Here is a painting of the eruption around mid to late 1700s Best Painting Ever IMHO.

 

And here is recent one:

 

I can notice a change even here, can anyone else? even if the painting can't be deemed completely accurate a brief search of versuvius shows that it has majorly changed and that what aldrail is saying is true. I have also heard abot spartacus staying in their, i think it would have been a bit dangerous and unnecesary but history says it happened is suppose.

 

Cool topic starter Caldrail. =)

 

vtc

[What Name You Were Referred to in the Legion]

In regards to one of my obscure questions, about names di the centurion say:

 

Centurion: Oy you, Vibius (praenomen)

 

Centurion: Oy you, Julius (gens name/gentilicus)

 

Centurion: Oy you, Tacitus (cognomen)

 

Centurion: Oy you, Optimus (agnomen)

 

Centurion: Oy you, vtc (extreme nickname)

 

Centurion: Oy you!

 

hmmmmm any thoughts?

 

vtc

[Ancient History and Modern Cinema]

I thought not. The trouble with prime-time re-enactments of the romans on tv or the big-screen is that it suffers from a modern perspective. Have you noticed that in modern 'period' films the actors behaviour is almost invariably modern californian? The old attitudes, mindset, and accepted behaviour have gone. We sometimes find B&W war movies a bit stilted don't we? Yet many of those actors were in fact war veterans themselves, and in one or two cases, were actually re-living their past. There are exceptions - 'A Bridge Too Far' for instance, which does a very good job of being consistent with that period.

 

This of course spills over in roman period films where the director or producer wants something visual that shows a certain 'alienness' in roman culture in order to give to appearance of depicting an ancient culture. So we see a clip where a wet nurse deposits her milk in a corpses mouth as previously mentioned. In order to depict romans with any accuracy (and we can't be exact - there's no living witnesses after all) a great deal of research is required and some effort by the actors to learn those mannerisms expected of roman citizens. That would add up to a verrrry expensive production, so instead we get these odd scenes or the unhistorical mix of gladiatorial equipment in Gladiator, or the easy-going brashness of modern interaction in Rome.

 

Could they do better? Oh yes. Wiould they do better? Too expensive, and in any case the whole point is to entertain, not educate.

 

Furthermore, to much realism will ruin some pure exhillarating action in Gladiator and spoil the quaity of a vast majority of the acting in Rome. I find a lot of films in history are to much like modern actors, emotions and culture masquerading in tunics and Roman soldiers uniform.

 

A visual delicacy is what film is all about and the use of 'lies' such as the milk provide a way of viewing the Romans as a generation that has come to pass, rather than a historical referencing documentary.

 

I love your summarisatiion of if they could do better (I think it isn't as expensive, if a film director or author really wants to have accuracy they've gota lot of resources, including here: A huge amount of data is collected and piled up here. Is it not?

 

vtc

[Guess the ancient city!]

Is it metapontum?

 

vtc

[Significant reassessment of the Gauls]

uh-oh, this could mean a lot of editing in my book.

 

vtc

 

I wouldn't worry too much. The notion of Gaul as a primitive civilization has been long discredited. Considering that the story relates the Roman invasion of Gaul to 52 BC, and that a discovery of such magnitude (if it were a new discovery) would focus on rewriting some albeit popular illustrated books, one should probably just ignore it.

 

It's fairly common knowledge that Gallic architecture included permanent stone structures of various scale. While Celtic Britain was fairly isolated in terms of architecture and art prior to the Roman invasions, Gaul had long been exposed to Greeks, Phoenicians (Carthaginians), Etruscans, Romans, etc. In any case, Gaul was not nearly so primitive, it just lacked some of the large scale societal and organizational sophistication of its southern neighbors.

 

phew, crisis overted

 

vtc

[Which Roman Films/TV series would you Recommend?]

DO NOT GET THE LAST LEGION

 

I do not rate it highly at all, but that is my opinion

 

vtc

[Significant reassessment of the Gauls]

uh-oh, this could mean a lot of editing in my book.

 

vtc

[Sulla]

Could a crowd moved to tears over elephants really be indifferent to severed heads in the forum?

 

lol elephants, precisely severed heads how i laugh

 

I was reading thrugh the first 4 pages of this and thik my views are much like your on the matter, Cato. I'd just add that I'm probably more of a softy for marius which probably slurs my better judgment.

 

vtc

 

edit: i actually had a tear in my eye and it's not even that funny. Thank you Cato.

[Alea Iacta Est]

Indeed, sullafelix you have hit the nail on the head, why say it, unless it will be a formiddable line not a 'lets get on with it' kind of quote.

 

vtc

[Niger and the victims of an old and cruel trade]

The romans had slaves, did they not?

just a rather lame and unnecessary point but it needed to be made.

 

vtc

[The death of the teenager?]

Towns are passing curfews to keep them off the street. Parents are shelling out for gadgets to spy on them. Teens are subject to twice as many restrictions as prison inmates. But U.S. psychologist Robert Epstein says we are wasting a huge human resource: Let them choose when to leave school, work and vote

[Coin find hints at visit to Australia before 1597]

A coin found in a swamp could help prove a Spanish or Portuguese ship was wrecked on Australia's east coast years before Captain James Cook's voyage. The coin, found in a snake-infested marsh, could help prove a century-old theory that a Spanish or Portuguese ship was wrecked on Australia`s east coast years before Captain Cook`s famed voyage of discovery.

 

more at News.com.au

 

Well there were two arrivals before Cook but after 1597 by a dutch crew aboard the ship Batavia, i found out about this many years ago when i played the character Wouter Loos in an amateur production.

 

Here's the wiki article

 

I wouldn't say they lasted long, supposedly one went mad and tried to kill the natives, something like that. Don't ask me to verify anything.

 

Responses? thoughts?

 

Good post Viggen, if it proves to be true i will be amazed.

 

vtc

[Unbelievably, more questions]

Regarding "portable altars " , Caldrail is on the money as usual . I suggest that if you have the Standard , then you have " a sacred totem" with you, perhaps its reasonable that an HQ unit with mules and slaves to spare could lug a small altar about. However given the number of skilled craftsmen in any Legion and the fact that stone was abundant (in Britain at least) then I dont think it would take too long for devotees of a given cult (Mithras springs readily to mind in this context) to produce an altar suitable to their use in the "field".

 

Very good point. It occured to me that they were incredibly superstitious and both the standard and creating an altar are answers, i had a thought did the standard reflect a particular deity or Rome?

 

I looked at the auxillary horseman as well, interesting to see one, I wonder how formidable just a formation would be

 

cheers

 

vtc

 

ps caldrail - i'd say a denarii a question

[Guess the ancient city!]

yanta? or whatever it is callled in lebanon

 

vtc

[Guess the ancient city!]

I noticed, while reading throuhg the rest of this you thought this thread would soon die around about march

 

is it selcuk, just to get it off the blocks

Oh yeah and nothing is easy if you live in aus and haven't visited italy, spain, turkey, africa (at all), the middle east, greece, or the balkans, etc.

Anyway i like a challenge as long as i get it eventually

 

vtc

[What biographies would you like to read?]

What about Crassus?

has he been done?

He would definitely be an interesting subject and make for an interesting read

 

vtc

[Your Hidden Roman Name]

On a more random note, if you can (as you did ) find out what the scrambled names are, can you work out my original (just mine though, don't cheat and look at my email address)

 

I don't really try to work out anyone's actual name from their scrambles because 1) Often there can be hundreds of possible names resulting from a scramble, and 2) (I know this is going to sound awful) I don't really find people's actual names as interesting as my own creations, and therefore not worth the effort of trying to figure out.

 

In Nephele World, everyone sports an anagram of his or her actual name -- ideally, a darkly romantic or humorously macabre "goth" name anagram.

 

-- Nephele

 

Interesting, I completely understand what your on about as well

 

vtc

[Unbelievably, more questions]

If you could give me the same feedback you have my other two topics I would be very happy and much obliged. If it metters i'm still asking particuarly about 2nd century bc although other eras are also fine by me

 

Here goes:

 

Did the legions sing and dance? (like the spartans, in fact spartans brought instruments on some campaigns)

 

Was the plume/crest in some helms gelled like that or something (is it horsehair as well)?

 

Did a legion also have to provide policing services?

 

Was a legion split up amongst a province?

 

How much protection did a rider and more importantly did the horse get, was the saddle similar to todays?

 

How high could a young legionary be promoted? odd question but necessary, lets say he starts right at the bottom.

 

Did legionaries carry whetstones or did they rely on a legion smithy?

 

By what name were you referred to in the legion, d'y'know what i mean (more of a nephele kinda question)?

 

Did legions have their own portable altars or shrines or praying devices?

 

Were there archers? If so were they levied from the surounds when the need arose or were they a permanent part of the army?

 

That's enough for today

 

vtc

[Your Hidden Roman Name]

On a more random note, if you can (as you did ) find out what the scrambled names are, can you work out my original (just mine though, don't cheat and look at my email address)

 

to try and keep this post thing up. I'll try and ask some more friends if they want theri naem done

 

vtc

[The world without us...]

The problem with this theory apart from those listed above is that

 

a. sensibly, shouldn't apes evolve into semi-humans anyway

 

b. You can't kill Keith Richards, he has no blood or organs left

You can't kill Mark Tremoniti, he is a machine. FULL STOP.

 

thouhgts on a. and b. anyone?

 

Caldrail, if I were an alien *adjusts collar* i would plan for the imminent destruction of cliff

 

vtc

 

ps oh yeah ty for post Viggen

[What if? Romans at Thermopylae]

But, Thermopylae was not about tactics when it came down to the battle, ...

That a very simplistic view of a tense active situation. True, a lot of it was blood and guts fighting to the last man, but then weren't the spartans defeated partly because they were outflanked by a persian ruse? Regarding tactics, if you have a pass and an approaching enemy, how do you deploy your men for maximum effect? How many reserves can you afford to keep back? Do you wait, or do you attack first? Can you build defenses? What sort of defenses? At what time of day or night is the attack to occur? What is the prevailing weather? Do you stand and fight, or fight a delaying action? There's much to consider even in an apparently simple engagement.

 

...the romans trained hard and some became veterans of loads of battles. When the spartans used their phalanx, the romans could have made their own shield wall and defended like that. Before Scipio Rome had very few tacticians on the battlefield yet they were not a pushover then. It probably comes down to the phalanx in a tight area.

 

Did the spartans defend in phalanx? It seems unlikely. The phalanx is not a defensive formation (though it can be so if the enemy attack head on) and works by pushing the enemy back on the field. The problem is that the phalanx is an awkward formation. It cannot easily manoever, it isn't adaptable to changing situations, it tends to drift sideways when marching (because the men are seeking to protect themselves via the man beside him), and requires flat ground to prevent the formation falling apart. Thre was a roman victory over the phalanx because the roman general chose to fight on rough ground, so the much-vaunted pahalanx could not retain formation and therefore lost its primary purpose.

 

So the general consensus is that the romans would haev been less effective than the spartans?

Disagree completely. Man for man the spartans were every bit as fierce warriors as the romans (possibly even more so?), but the romans had the edge on operational strategy and I suspect were better organised as an army, though much depended on who their commander was.

 

Caldrail, you really are something, you provide me with a fantastic and detailed insight on everything i say. As i said when your swinging your sword around and lunging the tactics are gone but to get to Thermopylae is where i think the romans would have been more effective. With a more flowing army they could have got more men there and built a more sustainable defence. I'm sort of asking who would win if 1 spartan took on 1 roman? but not really in that context.

 

You said that the phalanx drifts sideways, but when you are squeezed into a valley, that doesn't matter much and weren't the persians coming head on anyway?

 

How do you think the 300 romans would haev coped being betrayed and flanked from the rear, assuming they haev done exactly what the spartans have done, up to this point?

 

vtc

[Guess the ancient city!]

Aosta?

 

Yes it is, the porta praetoria on the eastern side

Sorry ASCLEPIADES, Congrats Maladict

 

vtc

[Early Republic]

The early Roman's probably were greatly influenced by the already booming and settled culture of the carthaginians/phoenicians they already had a senate by the times the kings were stripped of their power.

Evidence that the Roman senate was modeled on the Carthaginian? Seems unlikely to me given the vast differences.

 

And theri is the semi-legend thing about Aeneas and Dido. Aeneas supposedly helped found Rome and Dido was his wife, she helped found Carthage.

Whatever Dido may have thought, Aeneas was not her husband. And this is pure fantasy anyway--what the heck does it show about real Punic influences on Roman civilization?

 

subtle slating eh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

notice my use of 'probably' and where did i say modelled in there

 

hgsytebuhcutnrj

 

vtc

[Guess the ancient city!]

Nope

To be precise, Terentius Varro renamed it after Augustus

It's within 160km/100miles of Turin though

 

vtc

Modena (Mutina)?

 

Nope, precisely its 110km away from Turin

 

vtc