roman wargamer

At any rate, as I recall, Livy states that the Roman flanks were overwhelmed. yes, if the flanks were ovewrhelmed the whole frontal line deteriorate, and normally leads to losing a battle, unless corrected, but communication on that era is not yet that advance for the Roman Legiones to control the rotating manipular line. if you will closely study the early Roman Legio as hoplite were very different to the later one when the Roman are beginning to arise as military power house.

hello FC, are you not going tackle more the "Roman Military History Timeline 900 Bc - 575 Bc." i like it best. you are like an anabatic that could precede the development of thunderhead emotion and idea. The Fetials, Priests of War was also a good one.

O! what a tough and tall call for FC. we expect you could make it lively. Rome arise with elected monarchy chosen by the patrician, under Etruscan.

Osama bin Laden was born in CIA war in Afghanistan against Russia. in this war game of the CIA... they happen to recruits Muslim patriots all over the globe. from the Philippines alone... we have sent more than a thousand men. after the war... most of them return as battle hardened rebel... now without a cause. unknown to many... it is bin Laden who trained them... and have a way and means to contact them. the Abu Sayaf was also born who made many international kidnapping for ransom. made headlines in world news for many months before the 9/11 terror. unknown to many... bin Laden brother in law was been in Cotabato City, Mindanao. after the September 11,2001. he was arrested by Saudi authorities. International Islamic Relief was trace by the US Government as one of the terrorist conduit for funding. bin Laden brother in law who heads this foundation in the Philippines, remember, there was no anti-terror bill or law existing to arrest them without first commiting terror acts.

actually my father come from Nothern Luzon, where majority of the army members came from. my mother come from South Luzon, just south of Manila, Philippimes. but i happen to be born and grow up (until 16 y/o) in Cotabato City, main land Mindanao. so i feel, know and understand very well what my Muslim friends emotion. i symphatized. bid Laden will not be born, if not for the by effects of CIA war game in Afganisthan.

when we were kids... we use to swimming in a river... even when there is a beheaded corpses just a few meters away... maybe i am little bit hardened seeing corpses. muslim rebel in the place i grow up use to cut the head of their victims... it is very common here.

last night in our prime time television news... a declassified footage of the 'police operation' on oplan Boujinca, was shown. featuring how Bin Laden's operative Ramzi Yousef make those left "liquid bomb." he left all of those things, after an accidental fire, and the police tracks him and identify him in the process... make arrest... knowing their "terror plan." the "terror plan" involves training pilot to use as suicides bomber for USA attack. and it was known as early January 7, 1995 and was relayed to the US authority. but still, the September 11 do happen.

sniper kills 16 pilgrims in Bagdad, muslim killing muslim, weird, isn't it.

Number Game According to Amnesty International Philippines now ranked number 3 as the most dangerous place for press and media for 2006 alone ( January to July 2006 only) number 11 media man was killed, Prudencio Melendres, after only a month ago his own cousin was also gunned down. Both are photojournalish as his cousin, Alberto Orsolino, suspects are of the same group, after the arrest of Roberto Lopez, the suspected gunman. ______________________________________________________ Children Hired Killers Kalinga Apayao, Nothern Luzon, Philippines This cropped up in the murder (case) of Kalinga journalist Stephen Omaois which is being heard at the Regional Trial Court (RTC) here. Davao City, Southern Mindanao, Philippines A report submitted by the Ombudsman ( equivalent to US District Attorney) special task force revealed that from August 1,1998 to June 30,2004 a total of 247 persons were summarily executed here. by unknown vigilante group excerpt from Manila Bulletin July 2005 a national newspaper since 1900 _____________________________________________________ how do you compare it on your own urban street crime?

but the "Rupture" was already here long time ago. it was discovered by the US Oceanograhpy. that the North American continental plate was breaking away from the Pacific plate creating a huge rupture between them. Leaving the rupture area bursting of magma because of the absence of a solid crust. and boiling the sea water, but protected only by the covering of Pacific Ocean deep water.

Replying to Rapture? what is rapture??? rapture ( G ) raptura to break, to tear out, tear apart. (the condition of) breaking apart or bursting (out) Webter's New World Dictionary _____________________________________________ then the question what is rapture? _____________________________________________ do it mean that when the earth was "rupture" (by a great hole) it will break apart or burst out. then they should consider the science of modern geology. the Pacific was known as the "ring of fire" because of many volcanoes there. but the earth was not "rupture" even with the presence of many volcanic holes. ______________________________________________ what's more it can not even be read in the book of revelation of the Holy Sripture.

Rapture... isn't it mean like a big and great ball was punctured, was blow-up like a ballon. is it that the real rapture, it will blow just because of a great puncture or rapture?

caldrail I doubt they rested it on the head, reply nobody know for sure xxx but an overhead shield wouldn't be too difficult to hold there bearing in mind that other peoples shields help spread the weight (except for one rank!) and that the weight is comfortably centered over the shoulder. reply are you sure, do you have taken precaution to consider what you say, by trying it yourself. take for example the scutum technical consideration: the height and wideness of the shield the weight, position and location of the handle. how long can you hold it with a bended arm? or over extended arm? when the handle is in the center ? or almost at the center? ______________________________________________________________________________ men in testudo formation do slowly walk with the continous shields covering.

caldrail Regarding tactics, you're basically identifying the same thing as me. reply yes, as i have taken note... xxx As for the shield question... reply the shields will be rested in the head... i was born and grow a poor child... when i was around 12 years old... we get a saw dust by the sacks and put it in our head then walk by feet for around 3 kilometers, the weight could be more than 10 kgs. and the event will take more than an hours to finish.

caldrail question? The Testudo needed protection? reply could you kindly give your battle formation diagram, so we can comprehend your battle situation scenario. so we can analyze how , where and who do the testudo... as you believe. xxx Or other troops to be devastating? reply the regular line Hastatus , Princeps , and Triarius never leave their designated line position. even when the enemy battle line breaks, it is the medium and light infantry jobs to exploit them, and when they totally rout, the legio flank cavalry pursue them to prevent enemy regrouping. xxx Raising shields against archery is quite correct. reply i agree xxx However, keep on doing that and you're going to get tired - and this is where the testudo starts to make sense. reply do you mean the testudo formation will not tire them, holding a raise shield. they use the same amount of energy doing it. as my point say's... testudo is a kind of military formation use for an intended tactical manuever. and not just for " "purely for protection" " against arrows.

I've been wondering, the scutum has a handle in the center, behind the boss, correct? So how does one hold it effectivily and not get tired during the fighting? S=strap H=handle .....=space ----------- |............| |............| |............| |.....H.....| |............| |............| |............| ----------- I just visualize a much more practical sheild with a strap on one side for the forearm, and a handle on the other, like this- ----------- |............| |............| |............| |.S......H.| |............| |............| |............| ----------- So what are other people's thoughts? This post has been edited by Dominus Rex: Jun 17 2006, 12:46 AM my reply |............| |............| |............| |...S..H...| |............| |............| |............| ------------ i believe that the straps was on the wrist and the handle in the hand the distance between the wrist and the hand was only around 3" inches it was around 30" inches from lower edge of shield and at the back of the boss. this is how i believe is the most practical way in terms of control and weight balancing.

caldrail question? It was purely for protection. reply the legio men will simply raise their shields to be protected from a volley of arrows. it is not testudo. xxx A formation like that cannot push the front row forwards without much cursing and bruised fingers. reply Testudo was a tortoise form military formation . rad it is not a linear battle line formation... but square... and best use in the frontal battle line engagement. xxx A useful protective formation perhaps, but with strong limits on offensive utility. reply the Princeps Testudo formation should be use side by side with the Hastatus Battle Line formation. the Hastati holding a battle line and then the Princeps testudo formation slowlly advance to the enemy frontal battle line... if it breaks... the supernumerary ante pilanus will exploit it and if the situations permits will do a flanking attack and pursue the enemy weakness. i never say it is a superior alone tactic and manuever. it must be use only when there is a battle line engagement... to be an effective... and under the flank protection of the Hastati line... and other support numerary to be "devastating at all." ... and "testudo formation" needs a different shield than the "battle line formation" of the Hastati.

yes, in the ancient 'old world' and Rome, they use mainly the sun and moon to tell the time.

testudo was best use in the frontal battle line engagement as a little big square obstacle to enemy, or an annoying slow moving forward tortoise shape military formation that could be devastating... Romanus legiones detach maniple assault group... that is moving towards enemy line.

Tommh http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/polybius-maniple.html reply thanks for the links ===== Eunapius Titus question? Q? I'm afraid that testudo was...only... reply no, it is a tactical formation... use like the phalanx to push the enemy battle line. xxx Q? in the fact that both formations require the men to retain a rigid formation with limited mobility. reply no, it have tactical purpose... why lock in formations that 'require the men to retain a rigid formation with limited mobility. ' if it have no reason and military purpose. if you are the legate, will you do it without reason at all. xxx Q? ... in a testudo formation attempting to push through a phalanx, or any other group of enemies. reply yes, use as defensive form- to block or impede the forwarding move of enemy line, like a "big stone wall" of hasta [ square form ] of pallisade in the way of phalanx. or as offensive form- to slowly assault "only part" the enemy frontal line, to create a breakage in the weak enemy battle line and make a hole in the enemy front. xxx Q? The testudo has one simply, unadulterated purpose: missle protection. wrong, when the roman legiones was under missile attack, they simply raise the men second liner scutum shields to cover the head of the frontal liner men. it is not testudo form or it is never been called a tortoise military formation. because it is the Hastatus basic form... a hastati battle line formation. xxx caldrail Q? The testudo was simply a way of avoiding casualties from missile fire. reply wrong, testudo was not mean to be for the use against protection from missile fire. testudo was a tortoise military formation like a "little big square" smaller copycat of the The Macedonian Phalanx formation. Q? As an offensive formation it had the disadvantage of being unmanoeverable. reply the testudo was only mean "to move forward or rearward" and use as a blocking detach force or use as a attack detach force in form of "little big square" pallisade of hasta. xxx Testudo was a tortoise form military formation . rad

caldrail It should be remembered that the roman army was derived from the greek model. reply yes , it is really the same , except that it was detached into segment of more manipular line. Ancient History Sourcebook: Polybius (c.200-after 118 BCE): The Roman Maniple vs. The Macedonian Phalanx Many considerations may easily convince us that, if only the phalanx has its proper formation and strength, nothing can resist it face to face or withstand its charge. For as a man in close order of battle occupies a space of three feet; and as the length of the sarissae are sixteen cubits according to the original design, which has been reduced in practice to fourteen; and as of these fourteen four must be deducted, to allow for the weight in front; it follows clearly that each hoplite will have ten cubits of his sarissa projecting beyond his body, when he lowers it with both hands, as he advances against the enemy: hence, too, though the men of the second, third, and fourth rank will have their sarissae projecting farther beyond the front rank than the men of the fifth, yet even these last will have two cubits of their sarissae beyond the front rank; if only the phalanx is properly formed and the men close up properly both flank and rear, like the description in Homer: So buckler pressed on buckler; helm on helm; And man on man; and waving horse-hair plumes In polished head-piece mingled, as they swayed In order: in such serried rank they stood. [iliad, 13.131] Such is the arrangement, general and detailed of the phalanx. It remains now to compare with it the peculiarities and distinctive features of the Roman arms and tactics. Now, a Roman soldier in full armor also requires a space of three square feet. But as their method of fighting admits of individual motion for each man---because he defends his body with a shield, which he moves about to any point from which a blow is coming, and because he uses his sword both for cutting and stabbing---it is evident that each man must have a clear space, and an interval of at least three feet both on flank and rear if he is to do his duty with any effect. The result of this will be that each Roman soldier will face two of the front rank of a phalanx, so that he has to encounter and fight against ten spears, which one man cannot find time even to cut away, when once the two lines are engaged, nor force his way through easily---seeing that the Roman front ranks are not supported by the rear ranks, either by way of adding weight to their charge, or vigor to the use of their swords. Therefore, it may readily be understood that, as I said before, it is impossible to confront a charge of the phalanx, so long as it retains its proper formation and strength. ===== The Roman order on the other hand is flexible: for every Roman, once armed and on the field, is equally well-equipped for every place, time, or appearance of the enemy. He is, moreover, quite ready and needs to make no change, whether he is required to fight in the main body, or in a detachment, or in a single maniple, or even by himself. Therefore, as the individual members of the Roman force are so much more serviceable, their plans are also much more often attended by success than those of others. ____________________________________________________________________________ Polybius "Therefore, it may readily be understood that, as I said before, it is impossible to confront a charge of the phalanx, so long as it retains its proper formation and strength." " "it is impossible to confront a charge of the phalanx" " So my point is that the phalanx was not or never defeated in a frontal penetration, but by the flanking strategic movement of the Roman cohors manipular reserve. ___________________________________________________________________________ representaion was only 1/3 parts of the cohors organizational structure: Macedonian Phalanx "it advances to the charge sixteen deep" /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' vs. Roman legiones cohors Primum Acies Line 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/..=............Anteadstatus / medium infantry 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.=............Hastatus Posterior / heavy infantry []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.=............Hastatus Prior / heavy infantry []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ ------------------------------------- Secundus Acies Line 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/..=............Ante Princeps / medium infantry 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/.=............Princeps / heavy infantry ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/. in testudo formation ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/. ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/. ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/. ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/. ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/. ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/. ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/. -------------------------------------- Equitatus Turmae ___________________________ CohorsSigniferi -------------------------------------- Tertius Acies Line []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.=............Triarius Prior / heavy infantry []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.=............Triarius Posterior / heavy infantry []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/..=............Ante Triarius / medium infantry 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. _________________________________________________________________________________ the Hastatus acies line hold the frontal line the Princeps acies line hold the flank line the Triarius acies line hold the rear line ___________________________________________________________________________________ Princeps in testudo formation only the princeps do the Testudo formation Testudo was actually a Macedonian Phalanx formation but in a smaller "square form" that is use to 'push" the enemy part battle line.

Rameses the Great "the spear ( 8' ) " I always wondered the lengths. That is probably why they were such a good defensive unit. ======= reply the 8' feet spear i mentioned was use only as representation in the hoplite spear formation question of _______________________________________________________________________________ " "metforce re-question?" " The second line of Hoplites would have a very difficult time changing the angle of their spear; you've got men infront of you so how would your level your spear when their shoulders are in the way? You'd have to lift your spear above your head which would be hard if you had others around you to contend with and if the spear is supported by a shoulder strap. The long lance just seems very unwieldy to me to manuver in close quarters. so my reply was you have a different view on this. the spear ( 8' ) height is only level to the men's hip or around 30" above the ground and if you will put a pivotal point in the spear at 24" and the control arm at 12" then you will need only an inches (more or less) to move the spear metal point at between 24" space. first men will diagonaly inclined towards their rightest side the metal point from 12"-24" from center 2nd men will diagonaly inclined towards their rightest side the metal point from 06"-12" from center 3rd men will diagonaly inclined towards their rightest side the metal point from o-12" from center __________________________________________________________________________________ this is how i know most of the spear name and sizes; The Roman Legiones have different spear name and sizes; "hastula" a short thrusting spear around 6 feet use by light infantry ( ex: velitarius ) "hasta" a long thrusting spear around 12 feet use by heavy infantry ( ex; hastatus ) "hastae princeps" a thrusting spear around 10 feet use by heavy infantry ( ex; princeps ) "pilus?" ( or pila?) a thrusting spear around 8 feet use by heavy infantry ( ex; triarii ) ======= the hoplite spear is around 14-16 feet long. the phalanx use a few feet longer than the hoplte spear, around 16-18 feet. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ although this in-depth work guess of mine will surely be subjected to exponetial crititism... both to the name , use and era of existence.

metforce re-question? The second line of Hoplites would have a very difficult time changing the angle of their shear; you've got men infront of you so how would your level your spear when their shoulders are in the way? You'd have to lift your spear above your head which would be hard if you had others around you to contend with and if the spear is supported by a shoulder strap. The long lance just seems very unwieldy to me to manuver in close quarters. ======= reply you have a different view on this. the spear ( 8' ) height is only level to the men's hip or around 30" above the ground and if you will put a pivotal point in the spear at 24" and the control arm at 12" then you will need only an inches (more or less) to move the spear metal point at between 24" space. ___________________________________________________________________________________ first men will diagonaly inclined towards their rightest side the metal point from 12"-24" from center 2nd men will diagonaly inclined towards their rightest side the metal point from 06"-12" from center 3rd men will diagonaly inclined towards their rightest side the metal point from o-12" from center

christmas was a romanized paganized ritual not a true first century christian doctine. you can not even read or find this word in the Holy Bible.

metforce (why have this unit which is designed to salvage your army after defeat when you rarely lose). reply the roman lost more number of battle than they won in their entire history. except that they could always raise new one in the height of their power. example: Hannibal lost only one army and he never recover while the Roman lost few number of consular legio repeatedly and still raise new legiones, even ... until Marius.