roman wargamer

that's what i like about Nephele, he always like to be mother to Caldrail. and i love her taunting joke. she always have a volume of it for me. it makes me re-thinks if she is fascinating in person.

hastatus centurio prior the senior captain in the hastatus maniple, who could command the hastatus posterior centuriae to move in front or back of their position. hastatus centurio posteriorthe captain of hastatus posterior centuriae tessessarius liason officer to the centuriae who give the watchword everyday, any one who by-pass the word will be immediately investigated and punish if found guilty bucinator the signal officer of the centuriae who give the sounding of command. and 3 assistant or lieutenant for each centuriae 1.optio, an executive officer next in position to the centurion 2.duplicarius, 1st lt. commanded the right hand side platoon 3.triplicarius, 2nd lt. commanded the left hand side platoon symbol was use to represent hundreds or even thousands of soldier in easy to visualized formation. visit the site URL: http://www.boardgameinventors.com you could see a shortened modeling of the Roman legion there.

reply quoted from Roman Legions vs Medieval Armies Jan 19 2007, 11:31 AM Post #48 (M. Scaevola @ Jan 18 2007, 09:11 PM) Mortgarten, about 1,000 to 1,500 cavalry...Laupen, about 3,000-4,000 cavalry i reply to him. then i concedes i was wrong and never know that facts. and it more pointed that infantry can really defeat cavalry.

the pooling of Roman Cavalry members as the comitia centuriata voting memberships convene; all the first right to vote members or the equites [knight] assemble themselves in front of the comitia. then the prefecti equites begun the commissioning of the heavy cavalry members. note: although patrician-plebians aristricracy sons are considered honorary equites members all of them begun their career as senior officers of the Roman cavalry and not as ordinary knights. whiile the legiones prefectus tirones also begun the commissioning of the commander of the centuriae. timeline early republic 1 commander of the maniple 2 captain of the centuria timeline late republic 1 captain for each centuria, and 1 legion liason officer also for each ceturia,and 1 signal officer also. and 3 assistant or lieutenant for each centuria the executive officer,the 1st lieutenant and the 2nd lieutenant. please note: all of these men family head and line are voting members of the comitia so sons can be an officers. younger one begin as assistant of the captain, the experience are captain of the centuria. ________________________________________________________________________________ _______ late republic the commanders of the company or centuriae: example centuria of hastatus prior 1 captain senior 1 legion liason officer 1 signal officer and 3 assistant or lieutenant for each centuria centuria of hastatus posterior 1 captain junior 1 legion liason officer 1 signal officer and 3 assistant or lieutenant for each centuria

the Roman Cavalry The junior heir and sons of the aristrocacy of the leading patrician and plebians sent letter to petition. a militiae petitor was sent to the comitia. the stage for cavalry recruitment begin at this way. all senior officers of the 500 cavalry, allies, socii and 1000 cavalry commander was commission first. then followed by the lesser influential family son's to be appointed to the junior officer command. the lower officer command was given to the equites members.

RW - The hoplite formations are not the same as the hastatii/principes/triarii formation of the consular legions. Consular legions did not form as phalanxes and instead formed as traditional three manipular line which you described. You seem to be confused between the two. either the phalanx or the maniple organization are both called legio or levied. by republic time, Rome could now raise a consular army which means 2 legion under one command. i do not know if You are just ignoring the timeline presented before or really by passed it intentionally. to re quote post #42 "390 bce after the Gallic Sack of Rome who defeated the Roman phalanx formation legio at Allia the next war and general experimented in dividing the solid phalanx into 3 to 4 division. at around 312 bce, or maybe before, the old classical legion formation become formally establish" rw ____________________________________________________________ The Phalanx Formation Description [ until the Gallic Sack and sometime later ] each figure represent 4 men deep and 4 men abreast = 16 men per figure the phalanx have 1000 men here: 16 men deep X 62 men abreast /O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O /O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O /O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O /O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O compare to the old classical maniple []/[]/[]/[]/[]/[]/[]/.[]/[]/[]/[]/[]/[]/[]/. the Hastati ()/()/()/()/()/()/()/.()/()/()/()/()/()/()/. the princeps ......[]/.[]/.[]/.[]/.......[]/.[]/.[]/.[]/...... the triarii the Maniple Formation at around 312 bce, or maybe before, the old classical legion formation become formally establish

The most influential military treatise in the western world from Roman times to the 19th Century was Vegetius' DE RE MILITARI. Its impressions on our own traditions of discipline and organization are everywhere evident. The Austrian Field Marshal, Prince de Ligne, as late as 1770, called it a golden book and wrote: "A God, said Vegetius, inspired the legion, but for myself, I find that a God inspired Vegetius." Richard Coeur de Lion carried DE RE MILITARI everywhere with him in his campaigns, as did his father, Henry II of England. Around 1000 A. D. Vegetius was the favorite author of Foulques the Black, the able and ferocious Count of Anjou. Numerous manuscript copies of Vegetius circulated in the time of Charlemagne and one of them was considered a necessity of life by his commanders. A manuscript Vegetius was listed in the will of Count Everard de Frejus, about 837 A. D., in the time of Ludwig the Just. In his Memoirs, Montecuculli, the conqueror of the Turks at St. Gotthard, wrote: "However, there are spirits bold enough to believe themselves great captains as soon as they know how to handle a horse, carry a lance at charge in a tournament, or as soon as they have read the precepts of Vegetius." Such was the reputation of Vegetius for a thousand years.

That pretty much says the same as me. un-informed J Caesar commanded multiple legion. it is a fact, even Marc Anthony, how about Imperator Augustus?

What is the time frame being presented here. The annual "levy" process of the legion evolved as much as the structure and tactical function of the legion itself did over time. if we will limit time epoch... in relation to the title of the thread. it should be of the early republic and before the middle republic begun. initially the praetor could have an imperium. until it was corrupted by the patrician into the hands of consul. The Phalanx Formation Description each figure represent 4 men deep and 4 men abreast = 16 men per figure the phalanx have 1000 men here: 16 men deep X 62 men abreast /O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O /O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O /O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O /O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O/O compare to the old classical maniple []/[]/[]/[]/[]/[]/[]/.[]/[]/[]/[]/[]/[]/[]/. the Hastati ()/()/()/()/()/()/()/.()/()/()/()/()/()/()/. the princeps ......[]/.[]/.[]/.[]/.......[]/.[]/.[]/.[]/...... the triarii the Roman divided the men into maniple of 120 men for each hastati maniple with 60 men inside the 2 centuriae into maniple of 120 men for each principes maniple with 60 men inside the 2 centuriae into maniple of 060 men for each triarii, the veterans have only a single centuriae footnote 390 after the Gallic Sack of Rome who defeated the Roman phalanx formation legio at Allia the next war and general experimented in dividing the solid phalanx into 3 to 4 division. at around 312 bce, or maybe before, the old classical legion formation become formally establish the following maniple line become standard hasta.........first maniple line princeps.....second maniple line triarii..........third maniple line the phalanx is a solid blocked of retangled formation while compared to the new Roman Maniple was segmented and divisible into manipular or "handful" that can be detached from and into independent tactical command and move strategically away from main body. Servius Tullius: 168 centuries of foot divided into 4 legions of 4,200 foot (42 centuries); 2 legions of juniores, aged 17-45. 2 legions of seniores, aged 46-60. A cavalry arm 2,400 strong. There also were centuries of pioneers and musicians. Notes from: "Hannibal" (The Roman Army), The Early Army of Rome 500-350BC; Theodore Ayrault Dodge. from post of G. Octavius

my time line in reference to my reply to PP was early republic. before Rome possess any province

The Phalanx Formation Description "Of these sixteen ranks" or sixteen men deep. for visual aid o/ represent one man. " if only the phalanx has its proper formation and strength, nothing can resist it face to face or withstand its charge" Polybius o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/o/ The Histories, Book XVIII, Chapters 28-32: From: Polybius, The Histories of Polybius Many considerations may easily convince us that, if only the phalanx has its proper formation and strength, nothing can resist it face to face or withstand its charge. For as a man in close order of battle occupies a space of three feet; and as the length of the sarissae are sixteen cubits according to the original design, which has been reduced in practice to fourteen; and as of these fourteen four must be deducted, to allow for the weight in front; it follows clearly that each hoplite will have ten cubits of his sarissa projecting beyond his body, when he lowers it with both hands, as he advances against the enemy: hence, too, though the men of the second, third, and fourth rank will have their sarissae projecting farther beyond the front rank than the men of the fifth, yet even these last will have two cubits of their sarissae beyond the front rank; if only the phalanx is properly formed and the men close up properly both flank and rear, like the description in Homer: And if my description is true and exact, it is clear that in front of each man of the front rank there will be five sarissae projecting to distances varying by a descending scale of two cubits. With this point in our minds, it will not be difficult to imagine what the appearance and strength of the whole phalanx is likely to be, when, with lowered sarissae, it advances to thecharge sixteen deep. Of these sixteen ranks, all above the fifth are unable to reach with their sarissae far enough to take actual part in the fighting. They, therefore, do not lower them, but hold them with the points inclined upwards over the shoulders of the ranks in front of them, to shield the heads of the whole phalanx; for the sarissae are so closely serried, that they repel missiles which have carried over the front ranks and might fall upon the heads of those in the rear. These rear ranks, however, during an advance, press forward those in front by the weight of their bodies; and thus make the charge very forcible, and at the same time render it impossible for the front ranks to face about. Such is the arrangement, general and detailed of the phalanx.

390 after the Gallic Sack of Rome who defeated the Roman phalanx formation legio at Allia the next war and general experimented in dividing the solid phalanx into 3 to 4 division. at around 312 bce, or maybe before, the old classical legion formation become formally establish the following maniple line become standard hasta.........first maniple line princeps.....second maniple line triarii..........third maniple line they are known as the main battle line of the legion. but battle information suggest that light infatry and allies augment the number and force of the legio. the light infantry at the front and the allies in the wing.

What is the time frame being presented here. The annual "levy" process of the legion evolved as much as the structure and tactical function of the legion itself did over time. if we will limit time epoch... in relation to the title of the thread. it should be of the early republic and before the middle republic begun. initially the praetor could have an imperium. at this time Rome would always have commission 5 legion in a year. one legion is perpetually and constantly existing like a standing army. the militia urbana protect Rome and always maintain it's legion there. while the 4 legion... was commission annually... train for a few months, then demobilized at the winter months. the senate convened to nominate the 2 consul; then presented at the comitia centuriata for election, and finally the comitia curiata will conferred the undivided king imperium to the 2 chief consul. is this information not universally known? ______________________________________________________________ the first case of extended tour of service Siege of Veii to over run the enemy, a siege was propose... causing for the legion to be kert all winter. salary and pay to the troops was first introduce. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- around 367 bce the practice of giving imperium to the tribunes was abolished... but later return due to the agitation of the plebians. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ]the first case of extended imperium The 2nd Samnite War when Rome arbitrarily made Fragellae a colony the second war begin again. the consul term has already elapse... rather than replaced him, as pro-consul the imperium was extended. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ the first case of dictator imperium being granted at the Battle of Lake Regillus Postumius was granted imperium as Master of the People and defeated the Latins.

in the late republic... a cohort could possibly number more than 11 centuriae, but not called by number. althought cohort was numbered 1 to 10 in the main body of the legion. centuria was called by name- title, function and position. 1 1-centuria of hastatus prior 2 1-centuria of hastatus posterior 3 1-centuria of princeps prior 4 1-centuria of princeps posterior 5 1-centuria of triarii prior 6 1-centuria of triarii posterior ________________________________ 7 1-centuria signiferi 8 1-centuria of hastatus antepilanus 9 1-centuria of princeps antepilanus 10 1-centuria of triarii antepilanus 11 1-centuria of cursores... light infantry naturally number more than one centuriae in a cohors.. but base on this presentation, a cohort could number more than 6 centuriae, and possibly 11.

a short story of the consulship. at the beginning Rome have king... the imperium belong to him, until he die. the patrician is the senate or advisor to the king. and plebians was the general and commander of the troops. when the king was depose and the republic was founded; who will be king-leader? to prevent tyrant to hold power for life. they created two chief consul co-existing with limited term and who hold the imperium. but neither of the two can force the other to act but either of the two can make the other not to act. when in time of national emergency, a problem can arise. so the dictator was created. at the later period... Rome become geo-political power... military imperium is no longer absolute but limited. having many province they also created limited consulship both in power and imperium. who will now be the king-leader? of the state of Rome. the lectors who have potestas but no imperium. the first meaning of consul was now very varied in the late republic. ______________________________________________________________________________ the Roman Cavalry The junior heir and sons of the aristrocacy of the leading patrician and plebians sent letter to petition. a militiae petitor was sent to the comitia. the stage for cavalry recruitment begin at this way.

It sounds like you may be confusing the Tribunus Plebis with the Tribunus Militum. The Tribune of the Plebs was a political rank, not military. the comitia tributa is different to the Tribunus Plebis with the Tribunus Militum. you are talking about. xxxxxx a legio have military tribune or the council of war. a althought some position and function originated to the tribune... it is now use as first ( in later time ) assignment to the son's of the patrician. a patrician can never be a tribune and in the consilium plebis. as a plebis can become a consul but not a patrician.

While I agree that there was a sort of disconnect from legion to legion (at least prior to the late Republic and early Principate), there was still some uniformity in rank, responsibility and command structure. I do think RW is trying too hard to fit modern structures and customs into their Roman counterparts, but I did just want to add this slight clarification for the casual passerby: A centurion was a centurion regardless of which legion he served. Each legion had up to 59 of them and each one carried their own rank and status. In theory, an individual Primus Pilus of Legion I would have held the same social status and authority as his counterpart in Legion II, but the two were not necessarily interchangeable the way that two different Colonel's would be in a modern army. In a modern army, a Colonel held that rank and authority to those below him regardless of his assignment, whereas in the Roman legion, each officer held that rank for soldiers within that legion. While a Centurion was a Centurion regardless of legion, a Centurion in Legio I had no command authority over legionaries in Legio II. here is my reply on centurion: when a centurion come tp his retirement time, he can; 1. retire, and his status as military will be dis-solved and return to civilian life 2. or upon request of the legatus, extend his tour of duty with privelege but when a new legio is commission, he can apply again on the same rank or while on active duty, he could be transfered on other legio, but subject to the appointment of new legatus legiones for his command authority.

to keep tract of what the possible number of soldier we are talking about, I suggest refenrence system; that will be easy for comparison to ancient Rome. modern----legion equivalent - that is most probable company--centuria battlion----cohort regiment--3 cohort or an acies line of the legio brigade----legion division----consular legion or two legion 2 division--2 consular legion or four legion [ legion number could be possible more ] who command company--captain battlion----major or lt. colonel regiment--colonel brigade----general of brigadier grade 1* division----general of major grade......2* 2 division--general of lieutenant grade,3* 4 division--general of full grade...........4* army ------field marshall ....................5* centuria-----------centurio cohort-------------prefect 3 cohort ----------prefect legion--------------legate or possible a plebs with full praetor title consular legion---consul 2 consular legion-consul with imperium more than 4 legion-consul with imperium at war, or possible a dictator __________________________________________________________ so this will be the most convenient comparison captain------------centurion major--------------prefectus lt. colonel----------prefectus colonel-------------prefectus brigadier general--legatus, a senator, or prefectus legiones- a plebian, but rich and influential enough major general-----consul lt. general----------consul with imperium general-------------consul with imperium at war or dictator __________________________________________________________ the leader, consul, vice consul and the queastor. who have been granted imperium to leads 4 legion. appoints his four legion legation of staff, legatus legiones is the consul legation to the legion. 1st legion legatus legiones vice legatus legiones quaestores legiones 2nd legion legatus legiones vice legatus legiones quaestores legiones 3rd legion legatus legiones vice legatus legiones quaestores legiones 4th legion legatus legiones vice legatus legiones quaestores legiones --------------------------------------------------------------- the consilium plebis will be convene... to present themselves for the possible appointment to the legion. the 1st legion as senior legio will be the first to choice 4 plebs for the military tribune with praetorship dignity. the 2ndt legion as lesser senior legio will be the second to choice 4 plebs for the military tribune with praetorship dignity. the 3rd legion as junior legio will be the third to choice 4 plebs for the military tribune with praetorship dignity. the 4th legion as most junior legio will be the fourth to choice 4 plebs for the military tribune with praetorship dignity. these process will be repeated four times until 16 candidate are chosen for the military tribune position. appeal will be entertain by the consul before he grant for the final appointment of all prefectus position. praefectus- (LA) someone put at the front to lead, or leader of the ancient tribal regiment prefect could mean- general, commander, leader and mentor. so prefect are plebians appointed to the military position in the legion. prefectus title, rank and function could be as low as major or as high as brigadier genaral[/] _________________________________________________________ the first appointment is the prefectus legionis agens vice legati- prefect of the legion acting in place of the leagate the less well known but very important is the prefectus tironum legionis- who screen the recruitment of the legiones soldier

what is the different between consul and the praetor? the consul is a political title, rank and function reserved to the patrician. while praetor is a military title, rank and function reserved to the plebians. is there an exception? of course there is, if you research deep and long enough, you will know why. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ after the consul have been granted imperium to leads 4 legion. he immediately assemble his client delegation to appoint his legation staff. and begin to select his war council staff from his supporters and other interesting party. the leader, consul, vice consul and the queastor. legatus- (LA) of legare to delegate such authority to other senior officer or bequaeth it's power to the deputize agens. as consul- is hence akin to counsel of the state or high magistrate of the republic of ancient Rome. the consul, then begin to appoint his delegation of Legion Legate from the patrician senatorial candidate. legatus- his senior legate laticlavius- then the patron junior legate quaestor- and the financier client supporter, as the comptroller so legatus is the legation of the consul where he delegated his authority by deputizing his agent. later, they will appoint the military tribune from the plebians.

the primary function is comptroller, but could act as acting consul in the absence of the two. agens vice consul. i never say there is always a dictator in time of war, my time element is too long to be definitive. as each war in every epoch produce differing scenario. in Cannae, they have two alternate equal consul, not dictator. i also never say that. to be elected and conferred consulship is the first stage... and could leads later to be granted office. it may be presumed by many that's there is only one or two consul in ancient Rome in any given time. NO! the senate have many many consul that run the government, the legions and the province.

in peace time, tho most influential and rich plebs could be praetor. but in war time; when a new army was raise, military tribunes normally command regiment or the cohors.

time element: early up to late republic; probable on most period. then let us study title, rank, and function. who can command all the legion in the field? in time of war. modern equivalent=commander in chief first in command dictator- a magister populi, could command all the legion in existence at a given time and place second in command vice dictator- a magister equitum, master of the horse, next in command third in command quaestores- the chief financial officer of the state, or the whole legiones who can command more legion in the field? in time of peace. first in command consul- could command all the legion in existence at a given place [ province] and time second in command pro consul- master of his horse, next in command third in command quaestores- the chief financial officer of the consular legio, comptroller who give the command nominated and elected by the comitia centuriata imperium vested by the senate through comitia curiata as Rome is already a republic at this era; the power to nominate and elect belong to the representative of the people- the comitia centuriata the legality or lex conferred now by the senate what is consul? a consul is literally an ambassador of Rome, who represent it's political, military, judicial and social power; who is vested with it, if granted an imperium. all his act is technically the act of the state or of Rome. pro-consul= is a rank just below the consul. a consul with imperium was all patrician. a plebian can be consul but never granted an imperium or command of the whole legiones what is praetor? a praetor means a general a praetor is the highest military tribunus with consulship power a plebs could achieved. a pro-praetor is a rank just below the praetor.

at the end of spring, the Roman senate convene to commission the annual levy of the army's legiones. after a brief debate, the two oppossing group realigned their patron members, and most senior patriarch favor the more numerous group to nominate their lead patrician family heir to lead, as the commission of the new army of 4 legio is declare, the appointment of the general is chosen. the baton of the new army of legio was given to the winning group, Scipio [example only] while the lesser group representative was given the next in command, only the leading patrician family heir is given the army's group of legio imperium, which ancestor has already lead an army in the early era of Rome. the appointment of the leading patrician: 1.Legionis Princeps 2.Legionis Princeps Vice or Alae the appointment of the lesser patrician as Legionis Questor

my reply was qouted from: Roman Army Talk.Com Glossary of Roman army terminology Antepilanus (LA): 'in front of the spearbearers'; soldier stationed in first or second battle line. from this divergent explanation and reference: my workguess shall be that pila could be mean as a general term for spear. so pilanus can mean to be spearman, not javeliner as suggested. as we all know that pilum mean javelin not spear. if ever then, the triarii can now mean the javeliner. pilum is a javelin throwing waepon... and no longer in your hand upon throw; so it is not use for fighting like the spear which is left in the hand for thrusting. ________________________________________________________________________________ by the way: does any one will say that pilanus means javeliner.