roman wargamer

metforce re-question? with shield reply the scutum have a 30" wide size while the hoplite/phalanx spear to spear side distance was normally only 12" and they are in a three serrated line deep, so even if you can cut the first one ( and still the stick protrude ) the next second linenage point of metal was still a barrier, and then how about the next third linenage point of metal, it was still a threat. you will be a very lucky man to pass the three line of "spear killing field" , pass it alive three times. try reading the thread, The Triarii, Last gasp of the Roman style Hoplite ? were most of them believe that the Triarii was form and weapon like a hoplite or phalanx... ( in hypothetical unit as/for comparison ) if the Triarii was the most veteran and experience...who sometimes win...the already lost battle... who have a thrusting spear and scutum that acts as the final battle line Hastatus acts as the " front line" Principes acts as the "reserve line" Triarii acts as the "rear line" or final line of defense, then "why" do the Roman legio imatate a poor kind of formation , weapon and tactic? or could please anybody mention any battle that a hoplite or phalanx lost a battle because their line was penetrated by way of "frontal penetration of the line." on other strategical move like the flank attack, i normally accept and concede that a flanking attack could be devastating even to a legio. while the "old battle" is normally within this premise, "the ancient concept of the battle was to break the enemy line of defense. who ever losses or break it's line of defenses was prone to lost the main battle." rad ======= Pertinax So .. in formation facing multiple points? reply that what i am thinking, how could anybody penetrate a continous line of multiple points?

metforce re-question? O O O O O Hoplite | | []| | | | | :| | | | | :| | | ^ ^ :^ ^ ^ [] [] [] [] [] Legion The Hoplite formation still seems vulnerable to close quarter combat. A 8' or 10' spear does me little good against a man with a gladius in close combat. Several men infiltrating the formation should cause chaos, panic and collapse. ======= reply do you mean with the shield or without a shield, but even with the scutum, if you will penetrate the spear killing fields alone, the length of the protruding spear beyond the hoplite shields, that normally have three line of protrude points of metal, your side is exposed and become vulnerable, if i am the hoplite on your diagonal side, then why should i not take the opportunity to "spear thrust stab you." you become vulnerable on both sides, that's left and right. my martial arts experience the "arnis" [ that use two 24" stick weapons] say's that a long stick ( 8' ) have more advantage than my shorter stick, even if could move my weapon faster. i do not know if any body could refute this basic fact. ( or try to do a martial arts battle this way )

the hoplite have a "long thrusting spear" and a "parma shield" ... /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' vs. [],.[],.[],...[],.[],.[],...[],.[],.[],.=............Hastatus Prior who have a "pilum javelin" and a "scutum shield" and a "gladius" as side arm. ======= if we are going to simplyfied the number, it show that the hoplite could easily ram down and run over the H prior line. more men have more pushing power. it is an established fact that hoplite can do roll over the hastati line, until the roman develop a novel strategic movement of the hastati acies line. by moving into flanking attack their supernumerary line of reserve. while the Hprior line was still holding and resisting the push of the hoplite frontal attack, and the Hposterior was held in second line to control and held in abeyance if the Hprior line break and the colapse of the first line happen, to prevent total rout of the H acies line. ____________________________________________________________________________ how can you avoid stabbing of the long thrusting spear of the Hoplite? it is very apparent that... the hoplite can reach , push , stab and maim the H prior line while the hoplite was still very far, safe and beyond the reach of the short gladius sword? the javelin attack threat can simply be minimize by raising the the round shield as defensive posture.

as we know it , tug of war , was a sport of pulling your opponent until it reach a mark line, who ever first team to touch the center marking line was consider defeated or lost the game. in reverse way , let's call it as "ancient tug of war" as the battle push each other's line to breakage. the ancient concept of the battle was to break the enemy line of defense/s. who ever losses or break it's line of defenses was prone to lost the main battle. _________________________________________________________________________________ the hoplite have a "long thrusting spear" and a "parma shield" ... /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''' /0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0''/0'''/0'' vs. [],.[],.[],...[],.[],.[],...[],.[],.[],.=............Hastatus Prior [],.[],.[],...[],.[],.[],...[],.[],.[],. [],.[],.[],...[],.[],.[],...[],.[],.[],. [],.[],.[],...[],.[],.[],...[],.[],.[],. who have a "pilum javelin" and a "scutum shield" and a "gladius" as side arm. as many people believed it. ======= here is my question, how could a H prior defend itself against a very long spear of hoplite with H gladius? the hoplite can reach , push , stab and maim the H prior line while the hoplite was still very far, safe and beyond the reach of the short gladius sword. from all military standard, the hoplite is superior here in weapon and manpower. long thrusting spear of the Hoplite versus the Hastati gladius? will a legate really allow his men of the legio to meet the enemy with an inferior weaponry? where do the Hp get their spear when they stab the elephant who pass their line?

so then what kind of spear does the triarii use ?

Furius Venator question? But the Triarii are not equipped with a pilum but with a thrusting spear... === reply then what kind of spear does the triarii use ? and what kind of of weapon is "Pilum" to you? ________________________________________________________________ we needed help!!! then , mabe Primus Pilus could shed light on this question. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ what is "PILUS" ?

Polybius quote "The principes and the triarii are armed in the same manner likewise as the hastati; except only that the triarii carry pikes instead of javelins." ________________________________________________________________________________ so it is very manifested from this qoute that they have similar weapons, "The principes and the triarii are armed in the same manner likewise as the hastati" " in the same manner " === so the Triarii carry a different kind of " pikes " [ or javelin ] === "except only that the triarii carry pikes instead of javelins." === it is now the question here ? what is the "pikes" being mention here ?

Rameses the Great question? Just to clarify something: The Roman triarii was meant to protect the bulk of the army by wating on the sides... reply here it is ... how i as know it , the Roman Legio ... the J. Caesar time and era. the Cohors men of war 1 first manipular line = the Hastatus line 2 second manipular line = the Princeps 3 third manipular line = the Triarii ____________________________________________________________________ the Hastati normally hold and maintain the first line of defense the Princeps normally do the counter attack if oppotunity permits as the situation of the enemy deteriorate and worsen ...and flanking defense of the cohors if the cohors situation worsen. the Triarii as the name say's the third manipular line men , normally hold and maintain the last line of defense. ( of the cohors ) _____________________________________________________________________

Hitoriki Batosai question? It could work only if the men were extemily skilled. reply Roman legio nomally train for a year before being send to war ( more or less , depends on war situation ) === If they were 18 feet long the romans could not carry thier shields as well and they would cover such little land in one days time. reply they use the shield as umbrella and the spear is on the right shoulder in the march. the use a standard military march cadence and a standard marching distance. === if it hit hoplites or even elephants do you think the spear could posibly snap in two? reply yes , it is highly possible upon strong impact and if it hit a solid thing or part. --------------------------- Hitoriki are you Nippon, your name sake seems to suggest, no need to reply if you don't like to.

the Roman military legiones have a very specific name for each and every weapon. "...'hasta' a long thrusting spear..." so a "hasta" could be translated into a 'long thrusting' "spear term," === then what do they call the small thrusting spear? answer = it is called the "hastula." _________________________________________________________ the possible origin of the name "Hastati or Hastatus." hasta = spear hastati = spearmen

Furius Venator Question? I have always assumed that the legion in Caesar's time was... Every man carries scutum, gladius and pilum and wears mail. There is no difference in organisation and equipment between or within any given unit... This is, I believe the generally accepted view. ____________________________________________________________________________________ my apology for the late reply Furius, the internet cafe line broke down, and it is late night , i was so hungry from work and over fatigue. i normally visit only twice a week , for two to four hours a visit , i also need to read my in box. ____________________________________________________________________________________ for the cohors level, try looking for my old thread titled "The Cohors." for brief into. ____________________________________________________________________________________ i will post you a neglected question! who guard the legate from a command vantage point position? who they are? from where? if they do not belong from the 10 cohors? so is legio really only 10 cohors? or what if...? _____________________________________________________________________________________ Q? Every man carries scutum, gladius and pilum and wears mail. There is no difference in organisation and equipment between or within any given unit... reply then let see, let's try to pick a...a....a... the line of men in the front of the "Signiferi." here it is how i know them, the men shield and weapon; shield = koile spear = lonche ____________________________________________________________________________________ it speaks for itself... that there is really a difference... in shield and weapon.

re / reply The Hastatus weapons spear = hastae small javelin =velitaris ________________________________________________________________________________ "...'hasta' a long thrusting spear..." Epitome of History Dr. Karl Ploetz ( n.d. ) ___________________________________________________________________________________ and "hasta 'velitaris' " is the light throwing spear [ javelin] with a soft iron point. ___________________________________________________________________________________ some writer confused common reader because they use "spear" and "javelin" in synonymous way. that why i came up with this ; javelin term = for any kind of weapons intended for throwing spear term = for any kind of weapons intended for thrusting note: although spear are normally use also for throw weapon in a "close quarter combat."

Germanicus say's Easy enough Polybius 6.23:- To these arms are added two pila or javelins; reply The Hastatus weapons spear = hastae small javelin =velitaris so what i mean... is that the Hastatus men have both a "spear and a javelin". the very translation of the word here "pila or javelins" are not accurate because... the Roman have a very specific name for each and every weapons. and i stand on my point that "not all legiones men have the same weapons and shields. as you said. ... let me have time to reply man... in a few days.

Germanicus But - In Julius Caesars time (Circa Gallic Wars)They didn't carry the same weapons and Triarii. They carried Pila, Scutum and Gladius, like all the other legionaries. reply the H antepilanus have different shield and weapons compared to Hastatus. the H prior and posterior have different shield and weapons compared to H antepilanus. _______________________________________________________ What I want to know is why Marius, half a century before J Caesar, did away with the Triarii... reply the Triarii in the new Legio needs to be a veteran and of high social status... ... which Marius can not have... when the senate refuse to raise the legio... and Marius do away with it by recruiting ordinary citizen. _________________________________________________________ and cursores was the light infantry and the antepilanus was the medium infantry _________________________________________________________ so what i mean... they carry all the old organization ( modified) and added the new Legiones ...the new Hastatus, Principes and Triarii ( Triarii , but not the veteran )

then what is the cursores doing in their front.

Furius Vanetor Re-question again The light infantry (velites) carried a light javelin, velitarus, but not the hastati. xxx reply still you have not prove me wrong, because the Hastatus really use it. _____________________________ I missed this before, sorry: rw...that's why they are called the heavy infantry, they have more weapons than normal light infantry. You really believe that? Nothing to do with their method of fighting? Just your belief that they carried more weapons. By your definition then the Greek hoplite is a light infantryman... xxx reply the very weapons you have will dictate how are you going to fight... the battle field.

So, what were the reasons for Marius doing away with them ? That's an interesting question......Anyone have an answer or theory ? Germanicus reply in my in-depth guess work, the Romanus Legiones in J. Caesar time have this structural organizational formation in the Primum Acies 1. H antepilanus 2. H prior 3. H posterior the H antepilanus was actually the origin of Phalanx: who have the same shields and weapons. But the form, movement and tactic was modified to suit the de-tachment tactic and strategy. so the legio in real sense remain a phalanx but the new Hastatus, Principes and Triarii become the new Main Line of Battle and the H antepilanus become a secondary line of defense.

thanks for the correction Furius

Furius Venator Q? reluctantly conclude then that you have no ancient source and that your claims are mere conjecture. Where does an ancient writer speak of the Hastati carrying both spear and javelins? Or is that mere conjecture on your part also? reply so you do not really know that the "VELITARIS" was a Hastatus weapon.

to levy a legion by an act of the senate... is the legal way and back by an act of the Romanus law. to levy a legion by yourself... is illegal... and subject to legal persecution in the future. then how can J. Caesar do it easily; first he have the dictatorship which carried imperium, ( and the secret triumvirate ) second he use it as an excuse against barbarian and other war campaign, and Marius is married to Caesar aunt. ( that he have a way to called the veteran legiones ) ____________________________________________________________ in Marius time , he was given the legal act to rise a legion, but the senators refuse to give their share of burden, which normally means that each senator will have the right and give a certain number of men , weapons and logistics... ... and Marius luckily do it himself... and the normal political, military and social strata was broken... ... and the rest is history... we now know or remembered as the "Marius Reform.'

Furius Vanetor Re-question again? Please cite any ancient source that backs your claims. xxx reply i do not need to prove me , myself wrong, it is your's call to rebutt my thread answer. for i know very well that you have the time and knowledge to do the researching yourselves. === Q? I think you'll find that most folk agree that the hastati and principes used 'javelins' (if we should call them that for clarity) whilst the triarii used thrusting spears, and that all the ancient evidence backs this. xxx reply because i myself pointed out only the Hastatus Acies, so i will limit it there: The Hastatus weapons spear = hastae small javelin =velitaris and they have more weapons than you normally think... but i think it is not the question here. so what i mean... is that the Hastatus men have both a "spear and a javelin"... and ect. that's why they are called the heavy infantry, they have more weapons than normal light infantry.

Ursus Does this whole argument starting from the first post serve a point? You either believe in this stuff or don't. As this thread demonstrates, those that don't believe aren't really interested. reply yes, it show how varied and conflicting the second coming of Christ doctrine was but as i see it they interested that why they reply / comment. and i believe there are more christian believer in a western part of the world than third world countries. _________________________ FLavius Valerius Constantinus @ Apr 19 2006, 12:26 PM) Well here's the answer. Jesus was suppose to come to them during the Roman persecution during Nero - Diocletianus, which the Revelations time allotment was, well Jesus didn't come did he. Then all the way the Medieval Catholic Europe, still no Jesus. It's safe to 'assume' humanity has a few more thousand years. reply i am researching the same question, but the time element in the Bible pointed to our time, now. as when the apostle ask , when Jesus will return , He give a sign's of "'ends' of the end of the world." that pointed to the The Great War , as one of the sign that the beginning of the ends is near.

Furius Vanetor Re-Question? ____________________ and the phalanx made a thundering contact with the Hastatus manipular acies line, that almost down the H prior line to the ground that was save only by the touching of the hastae end stake to ground that stop and impared the phalanx continous move === Sadly it was a brief moment of concord... xxx The pilum is no more than 5 feet long. How on earth does 'planting it in the ground' prevent the much longer pike from outreaching it? Or are you claiming that they actually planted stakes like the archers at Agincourt? Either way quote an ancient source who can confirm this. reply i say it is "hastae" not pilum, as pilum is not a weapon of Hastatus, but of triarii. ________________________________________________ H posterior at the rear area begin to rain them with velitaris === Do you mean pila? The effective range of a pila was about 15m. It'd scarcely clear the hastati never mind reach the phalanx. reply so you do not know what is "velitaris." it is not pila that i say, i said "velitaris." __________________________________________________ left flank of the phalanx that are left open because their light infantry is left behind away === Why? xxx reply the phalanx light infantry is in the phalanx rear position, like the H antepilanus, as of that time. ___________________________________________________ the weak side will now be vulnerable to spear thrusting attack === The triarii used spears. they're not engaged yet. Neither principes nor hastati commonly used the spear. xxx for me , and for the benifit of common reader , spear are the "generalized modern term" use for: the Hastatus "hastae" or the Triarii "pilae" , which is not use as "javelin." to be specific... the spear i mention... is the H antepilanus "pila." it is called the pila. ____________________________________________________________________ Q? The pilum is no more than 5 feet long. How on earth does 'planting it in the ground' prevent the much longer pike from outreaching it? reply as i said it is not pilum, the Hastatus use the longer "hastae", and a hatae have a pointed metal spike in the rear end of the stake use for planting it in the ground. i hope my old memory do not fail me.

Absurdity on stilts. M. Porcius Cato Oh dear. That's me... Furius Vanetor reply tell it to author of the Biblia. for it is not my word ... ...it is clearly written in the Holy Bible of the christian and the word of their Lord God. all can be read in the chapter of revelation.

to me, the phalanx have some good points , but also have weakness ; let's see them, they have deeper manpower and longer line, but once engage , they can not be move rearwards, what's more so , that diagonal movement is almost impractical or snail pace to do. then the Roman Hastatus "manipular acies line", have three different independent lines ; that could be move each other , free from each other's bearing. let's propose that the Hastatus are moving to engage the phalanx: and the phalanx made a thundering contact with the Hastatus manipular acies line, that almost down the H prior line to the ground that was save only by the touching of the hastae end stake to ground that stop and impared the phalanx continous move. than the H posterior at the rear area begin to rain them with velitaris, while the H antepilanus slowly moving to make a right flanking movement at the left flank of the phalanx that are left open because their light infantry is left behind away, and the phalanx stop because of the threat on their side. when the H antepilanus are heading and making ground to form a left flank linear attack on the phalanx, the weak side will now be vulnerable to spear thrusting attack. the phalanx light infantry now coming , is also a threat to the right of the H antepilanus, so the cohors equites legiones are advancing and preparing to couter the threat , if possible , is to really engage the phalanx light infantry if they will made a move to try to made a contact engagement in the right flank of the H antepilanus. while the H antepilanus now is making a real threat to the whole phalanx right flank. ======= so the phalanx is very strong in the frontal in term of line and deep manpower, but can not be separated into individual line to counter any flank attack threat themselves. while the H manipular acies line are weaker in deep beacuse they act as separated line, but can defend themselves in any kind of flank attack threat, etheir in right or left side. because they have the H posterior and the H antepilanus to spare in that kind of scenario. the phalanx have the positional tactical advantage, but is very vulnerable to the Hastatus strategical movement advantage. so the only answer to that weakness is to always attached a light infantry in etheir side, which will cause them more men and longer static line that is very hard to manuever.