roman wargamer

Q? The difference to me seems to be in the doctrine of second death versus hell. The second death is just that, dead with no ressurection...gone for eternity. Hell is eternal torment, still around but tormented. Spurius reply The Second Death , after the Resurrection of All Men on the Judgment Day

but nowhere does christian church today teaches this doctrine, or the belief that men will be resurrected again. the common doctrine is that people will be judge on the day of his death right away.

a biblical belief of the original first century Christian on death.

a legio that is going to battle were normally runs 16,000 per legio. ( or more ) what is normally called the 6,000 are the commission member. and the 4,000 supernumerary , and the cursores , axulliary and etc. you need to take a deeper research to know them well and get oriented by their name and function.

Q? I don't get what you're driving at with the Ia Drang thing. Can you be clearer please? reply when we talk of a battle, it do not litterally mean only one and single engagement. first , it is a reply to give a point that Roman legio could continue to fight even after 30% casualty. Q? Roman soldiers able to withstand 70% casualties? I don't think so. All armies fall apart after 30%. However - there are certain circumstances when higher casualties are taken. caldrail so i give it as refference to prove my point " At the battle of Dyrrachium not one of Caesar's soldiers came out of that battle unwounded. The Military Affairs of Ancient Rome: By Lt. Col. S.G. Brady a two paragraph combine to give a figurative point, but normally accepted to short written article that have been analyzed for the common reader, it is now you , if your interested to go on deeper. even if he is 50% wrong, 50% WIA casualty Roman legio detach unit did survive. i considered it almost similar in Dyrrachium case, where the advance guard battalion ( 500 men ) fought in the valley that is controlled by the enemy, while the rest of the regiment is "on the other side of the mountain" fighting their way to reach them. while the NVA are doing everything to prevent the re-informent to the cavalier's men. the whole regiment was separated by a mountain range but to a general's point of view, it is the battle of the whole regiment and considered as only ONE battle. Q? if we allow 3 feet per man (Roman close order, approx 1 metre) then in order for there to be a switch the men involved have exactly half that space in which to manoeuvre. I am thin yet measure slightly over one and a half feet across the shoulders (or 0.5m). Yet I am carrying no shield and wearing no armour. There just isn't room for one man to back away whilst his colleague advances. reply the distance in technical term; a milites have a shield size of 30" distance between each other 24" , of the shield a milites have a free space of 06" inside the shield 3" on both sides of the shield so distance between each other 24" a milites have a free space of 03" right flank a milites have a free space of 03" left flank ____________________________ .........................................= 30" space for the rear line men use for the rotation of line. the men will only slightly diagonally incline the shield outwards. when the man pass by. "the men , they all have a minimum of two feet distance between "each other shields." it is the Romanus Legiones "double space" formation' use for the "rotation of the line." different formation also have different "signa" and the Roman use many formation , not one only. ________________________________________________________________________ a qoute by Spurius , to give light that they can move the line while battle engage. "Evolutions" chapter by Vegetius could shed some light: ... They should learn to dress in a straight line and to keep an equal and just distance between man and man. They must then be ordered to double the rank, which they must perform very quickly, and instantly cover their file leaders. In the next place, they are to double again and form four deep. And then the triangle or, as it is commonly called, the wedge, a disposition found very serviceable in action. They must be taught to form the circle or orb; for well-disciplined troops, after being broken by the enemy, have thrown themselves into this position and have thereby prevented the total rout of the army.... are we going to think ? that after the Roman legio front line broke down , the enemy will temporarily retreat to rest , and let them regroup or reformed unmolested, it is a common sense to press your advantage vigorously when the enemy are at rout , and the whole Hastatus acies line are making a rearward moving of the line behind the Triarii. but the Roman after, "being broken by the enemy," "have thrown themselves into this position and have thereby prevented the total rout of the army...." "for well-disciplined troops" have a way for them to survive a scenario like that.

Q? the Romans had a drill for rotating ranks and a drill for replacing formations. The point at issue is really quite simple: did they rotate ranks while the front ranks were in hand to hand combat. I have pointed out that this is a physical impossibility ... reply if we take your word that it is imposible to rotate legiones front line men when they are engage, then the whole line of the Hastatus Prior ( or Posterior ) will colapse of exhaustion, if the enemy will not dis-engage for the very long time. quote "in proportion to the number of men engaged, ancient warfare was far more deadly than modern. One example is sufficient. At the battle of Dyrrachium not one of Caesar's soldiers came out of that battle unwounded." reply in any war, small independent battle could take repeatedly, until the major one or "the longest day", not and never single one or one day engagement only. Q? In the battle to which you allude the overwhelming bulk of the NVA were killed and wounded by air and artillery strike. What's your point caller? reply in this battle, it take them few days of continous battle. not few hours , not one day. they hold them at bay for the air and artillery barrage. without them at open field, in the NVA own place, i do not think the NVA will come out in open to die. for the NVA presumed they have all the military advantage to crush the regiment.

Q? So he's actually suffered light casualties although one unit holding a fortification, into which Caesar says about 30 000 arrows were fired, suffered very heavily. A unit in a fort reacts very differently to one in open battle, it is not in formation for a start. reply if all the men did not engage, and keep in the safe distance within the "intervallum", they well never be wounded. so it is indicative of intense attack that they need to rotate the lines to relieved the battered men, to avoid the colapse of the camp front guards. you say's moving forward is already a manouver, how can you manouver without formation. in the book and film "We Were Soldiers" the regiment's engage a 6,000 Vietkong regulars, killing around 2,000, but their's casualty and wounded was very minimal, in O defensive formation. in this case, not all of the airborne was wounded, but the bullet use is sure more than 300.000, with 30,000 , in Dyrrachium"'In the fort however, not a single soldier escaped being wounded.' " but i am very aware, that not all the the US personnel in Vietnam was enagage in actual battle. a legio have advance guards, main body, rear guards and the camp guards, etc. i know it. ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| QA I am glad that you've brought Colonel Brady to my attention however. when I am in need of some comic reading, I'll know where to turn...I am even more startled that you quote a (very dubious) secondary source reply i visit it after someone give the links, it take me only one hour to read the entire article, but i take his word more than your expertise, for he have a name to be blemish if his wrong. but i know very well what he means, for i also know the law of probability. if Caesar was not wounded, then not all men was wounded, as JC was never mentioned been wounded. "you have to learn the elementary of Romanus Legiones Military, to begin with , like i do myself more than 20 years since i begin researching , with the primary purpose of "understanding" it, but never to question the writer lacking." my purpose in reading is to UNDERSTAND , what the writer mean, not to attack his lacking. Q? ..."but that they were not rotated whilst troops were actually in melee combat." reply the Roman Legion regular line never engage in individual CQC or your "melee combat" terminology, if ever that happen, it already means that the "cohors signiferi" and "legio signiferi" was lost, and only fighting to protect the "eagle" and already means that the battle was now a lost cause. Q? My point is exactly that men could not fight for prolongued periods. This would give rise to lulls in the fighting during which the troops may heve replenished/swapped their front ranks. reply NO!!!, if you are the ONE who "dis-engage" and or retreate, the whole army might presumed it you are losing the battle, or you are already escaping. granting without conceding, "This would give rise to lulls in the fighting during which the troops may heve replenished/swapped their front ranks." here is the problem??? How are you going to March Forward the thousand fresh men in the front liner position, in an "intact" organizational structure and not lost their proper function and position, and still without effecting a chaos and disorientation in the men you will pass by??? if you have no pre-arranged battle drill formation march. practiced before the war. ...ask a military drill master, even a fire team have a pre-arranged battle formation. _______________________________________________________________________ may i ask your opinion, how are you going to rotate the men of the cohors and legio? after "This would give rise to lulls in the fighting during which the troops may heve replenished/swapped their front ranks."

Q? Q? Roman soldiers able to withstand 70% casualties? I don't think so. All armies fall apart after 30%. However - there are certain circumstances when higher casualties are taken. caldrail yes I said that. There are such circumstances, mostly when the soldiers involved have no other choice. As I mentioned before, human beings are social animals and warfare is an aspect of that. When you're in the line and men are falling about you stone dead or screaming in agony, you instinct is to move away from danger, to return to the safety of the herd. With humans this occurs quite soon. Most military units are finished before 30% casualties are reached (some run away as soon as the fighting starts). reply i am not saying all the army and history, but merely some of the roman case in the time of Caesar. let's consider this case scenario; and Julius Caesar Legiones army suffered a 100 percent WIA casualty: " At the battle of Dyrrachium not one of Caesar's soldiers came out of that battle unwounded." then how can you do it without the rotation of line? The Military Affairs of Ancient Rome: Digital Attic v2.0

Q? Roman soldiers able to withstand 70% casualties? I don't think so. All armies fall apart after 30%. However - there are certain circumstances when higher casualties are taken. caldrail Q? So you claim that the Roman soldier was unique in history, able to sustain 70% losses and still fight on. Interesting. Furius Venator reply first , i am looking from a general or legatus point of view , not at individual soldier. so i am always talking on "individual acies line" and not or never on individual man. see the example explanation; "when the whole "primum acies" Hastatus manipular lines was badly battered," and the manipular lines is still "intact" they are immediatelly " signa referre" "and when they are still "intact" and still a figting line..." but the strenght already fall below an effective active fighting manipular line " ... a "signa ad triariros redisse" will be given to let them reorganised behind the triarius line, and the battle will fall in the shoulder of the veteran "triarii manipular line." === here the 3 line of the primum manipular acies have lessen active combat capability, and could already be considered by the cohors tribunus as loss lines, but there are not literally all are already dead, but already a loss lines; =30 percent cohors disability. if the situation worsen , it will lead to the Roman doing a O square defensive formation. But please take note, the "Secondus Agmen" is still not in "Batlle Engagement", nor the Main Agmen which is alway held in reserved , for the finalle that will tip the whole battle. _________________________________________________________________________________ Q? You claim then that a Roman unit NEVER retreated for tactical purposes in case it gave rise to a general rout, then later that Caesar often used tactical retreats. Which is it to be? Furius Venator reply "in J. Caesar some battle, he do many "retreate" ( rotation of lines)" i am talking of "rotation of lines" and not literral reatreate or withdrawal of the whole army. Q? "in case it gave rise to a general rout" here is the classic example of what i mean from a Romanus Legiones point of view. battle of munda from unrv " Pompey's men seemed to have viewed this as a general retreat by the one man who knew Caesar so well, and panic was the result " Neither army was able to gain an advantage and both sides likely shifted from moments of sheer panic to believing victory was imminent. The exhausting battle was taking its toll and both commanders left their strategic overview positions to join their men in the ranks. Caesar himself later told friends that he had fought many times for victory, but Munda was the first time he had fought for his life. Finally after an epic struggle, Caesar's 10th began to make the difference. Positioned on Caesar's right wing, the 10th started to push back Pompey's wing. Pompey countered by moving forces from his more secure right wing to reinforce the precarious position on his left. Caesar, however, pressed his advantage and sent his cavalry hard against Pompey's now weakened right. Dio Cassius adds that Caesar's ally, King Bogud of Mauretania now came up and threatened Pompey's camp. Labienus, in command of Pompey's cavalry, recognized the threat and broke off from the main battle with his cavalry to secure the camp, but this seemed to have dire consequences. Pompey's men seemed to have viewed this as a general retreat by the one man who knew Caesar so well, and panic was the result. To this point, both sides had likely lost about 1,000 men each, a relatively high figure and indicative of the difficult fighting, but the actions of Labienus sent Pompey's army into all out fight. Caesar's army overwhelmed the retreating enemy and was merciless in its zeal to end the war. Up to 30,000 men were slaughtered in the carnage, including Labienus, but Gnaeus Pompey managed to escape. Still, it would turn out to be the final major battle and victory of Caesar's career, and one that effectively ended land based resistance. Q? Modern military tactics involve units in very open order (by ancient standards) overcoming their enemies by firepower, largely that of indirect fire weapons. The Romans fought in close order and forced the issue at close quarters. You should know this... Furius Venator reply if you will going to talk battle with a regimental commander, you will going to see what it mean, "if you lost your battle line , you will lost your battle." fighting tactic and strategy in the battle fields never change; medieval era or even the late modern era; until after the invention of the machine gun. until now if you will going to see it from a general point of view, it never change. but i concede you have a very good argument.

Q? And you still do not address the mechanics of how this nice drill was applied in action. reply if i will answer you in a very detailed mannner, the book i dream of writting will now be realize. that is why i claim copyright to all my reply. you have to do your own study of the Roman Legiones yourselve. so you could distinguished "hastae" from "hastula" or the "pilae" of the triarii. the very name of the soldier will immediately signify position and location in the battlefield. Praefectus Castrorum control the left flank of the "main agmen." Legatus Legionis control the center of the "main agmen." Tribunus Laticlavius control the right flank of the "main agmen." Q? A street fight is not a battle. reply i have been in the center of a battle many times between soldier and muslim seperatist at our city. i know the different between street fight and military battle. Q? My point is exactly that men could not fight for prolongued periods. This would give rise to lulls in the fighting during which the troops may heve replenished/swapped their front ranks. reply NO!!!, if you are the ONE who retreate, the whole army might presumed it you are losing the battle, or you are already escaping. granting without conceding, "This would give rise to lulls in the fighting during which the troops may heve replenished/swapped their front ranks." here is the problem??? How are you going to March Forward the thousand fresh men in the front liner position, in an "intact" organizational structure and not lost their proper function and position, and still without effecting a chaos and disorientation in the men you will pass by??? if you have no pre-arranged battle drill formation march. practiced before the war. ...ask a military drill master, even a fire team have a pre-arranged battle formation. that is the difference of the Romanus Legiones, the enemy do not have a system how to rotate the rankand file of the front line, the Roman have a pre-arrange battle formation perfected by constant practiced, for almost a years before they where send to war. when the whole "primum acies" Hastatus manipular lines was badly battered, and when they are still "intact" and still a figting line... ... a "signa ad triariros redisse" will be given to let them reorganised behind the triarius line, and the battle will fall in the shoulder of the veteran "triarii manipular line." please most of my example was only means to clarify a part scene, not the whole battle situation. Q? Modern military battle order has damn all to do with Roman tactics. reply most military historian will concede that modern military organizational structure... ... was adopted from the Roman Legio. Q? You are describing the Romans grounding their spears like pikes. This is highly irregular. What's your source and why do you assume that, if it ever happened, it was a regular occurence. reply you need to learn by yourselves, any available martial arts, study it , like boxing. in boxing, you have a minimum distace of 4 feet between opponents, they are unarmed. much more if the fighter have arms like sword it will be around 6 feet. here is my explanation on that, when a Hastatus Prior milites advanced to prepare to make a contact to the enemy, ( please take note that the Hastatus Antepilanus was still in the front ) the centurio prior will select and decide the right place as the line, and then will do the battle formation line, and take the active battle form, normally in the south paw stance, shield in forward position for the front line men, the second line men will put their shields in the head as coverage as also the last men. the longest spear "hastae" will be protruded in the form of "hastea kiliing field", it mean means that from the shields and outward around 4 feet, you can not come forward without being maimed by the pointed stake of the pilanus. detailed explantion; they will hold it in slightly horizontal diagonal way towards the enemy, and the end of the stake is resting in the ground, "resting in the ground", to ease the weight of the hastae, and have a very strong stopping effect if somebody impacted it. help them have a solid and stable stand, left foot at front and right foot in the rear, and the hastae act also as a balancer or support cane, while the shield rested also on the ground. Q? I am fully prepared to believe that you are a very brave man who would never countenance running from the enemy. reply their is no soldeir i know who are my friend or relatives who claim they are brave, it is the courage to face death and act the right way to defend one selves,even very nervous, with the belief that by defending you will have a higher chances of surviving. even the Roman military maxim say's let a defeated enemy army have a escaping gaps, otherwise they going to fight to death for survival to save one's life. Q? The plain fact is though that men in battle flee. And in ancient battles they fled well before losing 10% of their strength. The casualty figures speak for themselves. yes!!! to foreign army it really happen, but it is differnt with the Roman. in common Roman Battle case, melee only happen after the the Triarii and Legio Signifire colapse. so it almoat means 70% of the Legiones lines already colapse. and not 10 or 30 percent. for in some case, a loss battle can still be won by the veteran Triarii courage to contnue to fight. in J. Caesar some battle, he do many "retreate" ( rotation of lines) but still won the war, while the enemy vigorously and continously attack the backwarding rotating line, until the enemy was finally exhausted, and Caesar counter-attacked the enemy without let-ups. from the behind the line fresh reserved men of second and the main agmen of the legio. in one of the most notable example was battle when he say's " I come, I see , I conquer." Romanus Legiones means of rotation or relieving front liner Prior to Posterion line or vive versa, do not indicate any literral meaning of retreate or withdrawal, but to let fresh men to take the active fighting and the tired men to rest and reformed themselves. like the cornu say's, "ad signa convenire". you have to learn the elementary of Romanus Legiones Military, to begin with , like i do myself more than 20 years since i begin researching , with the primary purpose of "understanding" it, but never to question the writer lacking. English in not my primary language, so most regular member forgives me on wrong choice of words.

Q? except of course that in action a unit would never be at full strength. Whilst there is no evidence to suggest they fought as a 'section' it seems a very reasonable assumption reply = the centuria have 10 continous contubernia that made the battle line ex: of Hastatus Posterior Hastatus Acies is made of of Posterior, Prior and the Antepilanus you must re-read most the members old post to avoid mis-qoute of the meaning they give. i already said the hastatus never break the battle line regardless of reason. Q? if tyhe front ranks are shoulder to shoulder they cannot have two feet between shields. That is the whole crux of the issue. So the front rankers aren't shoulder to shoulder in this system. I refer you to my above posts for the problems this raises. reply= the word "shoulder to shoulder" do not litterally mean shoulder to shoulder, but means they are in a very "straight battle line" using the shoulder as horizontal direction, so the "two feet between the shields" are the standard Romanus Legiones 'battle formation.' it is use as the re-assembly fields for the retreated men and reform and reorganize again as before on the same formation less the casualty. Q? Very plausible, regrouping out of combat to reorganise. there is no way a coward could run backward continously, a cohors have 10 separate battle lines, not including the 2 next agmen. i think only a true military will understand that... in retreating without command or order, a death on the spot be could done to a coward milites by it own officers. the "signa referre" was given to Anteadstatus after a heated and bloody first engagement [/q] The key word here being after. [q] the Anteadstatus shall move at the rear of Hastatus Line. while the enemy are heavily attacking them as thought they are already retreating. [/q] Q? The key word here being after. Q? Thought that contradicts the above as it implies that they're still fighting... reply = as i notice it , you seem not very familiar of the Legiones Organization and Structure, When the two forces meet intially .... a very strong reaction of fighting ensued, the extreme heated swordmanship and the bloody first engagement will slow down "after... ... 'after' a few minutes of fighting will surely slow down" but will still continue to fight. so the term "after a heated and bloody first engagement" means after the heated engagement slow down. i have been to many street fighting, and i know no man can continue to fight ... at the same intensity continously for even just 20 minutes or 10 minutes. their is no word that say's the two forces dis-engage in the fighting. so contradiction was only on your perception. i am willing to stand my point to a true military officers, to prove my argument is logical and possible. and much more within the "now" modern military battle order. the men of the Hastatus , they all have a minimum of two feet distance between "each other shields." [/q] Q? This still raises the question as to how, if in combat, the enemy were prevented from exploiting the gaps as I suggested above. as the explanation say's the two feet distance between shields was filled by protruding 'Hastae.' [q] on that space the three Hastae protrude in an upward form while the end of the stake was firmly holding the ground. they all slowly rise it above the head retreating men, and slowly return it again at the same formation, after the men already made a safe contact and passage in the pilus killing field area. when the antepilanus retreated backward , they "PASS" on that "Space" without breaking their own line formation or the Hastatus Posterior and Prior line formation. [/q] Q? This is a wholesale replacement. But did it happen when the enemy were at grips? Or merely in proximity? reply= it done even while the forward men are fighting the enemy. [q] They could rotate the front rank and rear rank without Breaking any formation. while they are in actual battle engagement. [/q] Whilst in battle, yes. Whilst physically fighting, perhaps. i stand , it is can done even while physically fighting. [q] The Antepilanus slowly step rearward in a marching cadence leaving behind the casualty, who can not move bodily , on each own , or already mortally wounded. the Anteadstatus retreat at the rear of Hastatus Line and reform again after 30% casualty. [/q] QA a unit suffering 30% casualties will have almost certainly fled. unless you are a coward, or the men are coward. it is your perception, i been almost killed not only once, but i stand my ground. but their own officers or the next line will stabs them to death for cowardice retreat. and prevent the chaos within their own ranks and file. the figure you are looking is only a part of centuria, a contutriplia. Q? Now all this is good stuff but suppose as the front rankers give back, the enemy follow up. How then do you prevent the two bodies becoming hoplessly fouled? kindly re-read all others post to understand the basic stands of members. the legiones "battle line" move by centuria , acies . cohors, and by agmen. not by section. here is my representation of the "full centuria." __________________________ Primum Acies Line Centuria Anteadstatus / medium infantry / Antepilanus 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/..0/..0/..0/..,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/..,0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/..,0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/..,0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/..,0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. Centuria Hastatus Posterior / heavy infantry []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/..,..[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/..,[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.. []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/..,..[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/..,[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.. []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/..,..[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/..,[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.. Centuria Hastatus Prior / heavy infantry []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/..,..[]/.[]/.[]/..,..[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/..,..[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.. []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/..,..[]/.[]/.[]/..,..[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/..,..[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.. []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/..,..[]/.[]/.[]/..,..[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/..,..[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.. Q? Now all this is good stuff but suppose as the front rankers give back, the enemy follow up. How then do you prevent the two bodies becoming hoplessly fouled? reply= the men and rank of the centuria have a pre-arranged post, or position and location; if you're position is in the front line, you can never never say's i wan't to be in the 2nd line. cowardice can be meted death right at the battle fields by stabing them right there. it is a military maxim, men are expendable. the distance in technical term; "the men , they all have a minimum of two feet distance between "each other shields." " a milites have a shield size of 30" distance between each other 24" a milites have a free space of 06" 3" on both sides so distance between each other 24" a milites have a free space of 03" right flank a milites have a free space of 03" left flank ____________________________ .........................................= 30" the men will only slightly diagonally incline the shield outwards. _____________________________________________________________________________________ to close the "gaps" the command of " signa ad pila et spathas" will be given. to mean = close shield combat formation. i claim copyrights.

it can never be understand... until you will know the the right and proper centurion formation. each legiones soldier have a basic formation and distance. how they could rotate the front rank? ________________________________________________________________________________ see related article 'The Cohors" for detailed formation in the above representation the figure represent 1 man ________________________________________________________________________________ the contubernia have 9 man member, 3 man shoulder to shoulder and 3 man at the back and 3 man at rearmost or 27 men for the contutriplia. the first line protect the frontal coverage the second line protect the front men head coverage from arrow the third line continue to protect the head coverage from arrow "the men , they all have a minimum of two feet distance between "each other shields." " when the posterior come forward , they "PASS" on that "Space" without breaking their own line formation or the prior line formation. they could rotate the front rank and rear rank without Breaking any formation. a Cohors have 10 battle lines with 3 battle acies lines. the cohors "primum line" acies have 3 lines compose of Anteadstatus, Hastatus Prior and Posterior. the centurion "line" was fixed form , rigid movement , and militarily straight line. nobody is ever allowed to break away from the line , either by some moving faster or slower. they do it by "military cadence" or numbered step of marching. regardless of opportunity, of exposed individual enemy, good reason because of weaker type of enemy troops or enemy flanks was exposed. The Hastatus Prior and Hastatus Posterior never break their line regardless of reason. It is the "JOB" of the more mobile and lighter Anteadstatus to do the "selective lesser battle". each manipular line have a standard distance of 50 meters each acies line have a standard distance of 150 meters it is use as the re-assembly fields for the retreated men and reform and reorganize again as before on the same formation less the casualty. i will try to recreate a scene with the following command and signal to point out the... ...order of battle. on my next visit, i'll try my best. __________________________________________________________________________ let's consider this situation; the battle engagement begin here, ( cursores was omitted for easy understanding ) ____________________________ figure 1 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/..=............Anteadstatus / medium infantry / antepilanus 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.=............Hastatus Posterior / heavy infantry []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.=............Hastatus Prior / heavy infantry []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ the "signa referre" was given to Anteadstatus after a heated and bloody first engagement the Anteadstatus shall move at the rear of Hastatus Line. while the enemy are heavily attacking them as thought they are already retreating. the men of the Hastatus , they all have a minimum of two feet distance between "each other shields." on that space the three Hastae protrude in an upward form while the end of the stake was firmly holding the ground. they all slowly rise it above the head retreating men, and slowly return it again at the same formation, after the men already made a safe contact and passage in the pilus killing field area. when the antepilanus retreated backward , they "PASS" on that "Space" without breaking their own line formation or the Hastatus Posterior and Prior line formation. They could rotate the front rank and rear rank without Breaking any formation. while they are in actual battle engagement. The Antepilanus slowly step rearward in a marching cadence leaving behind the casualty, who can not move bodily , on each own , or already mortally wounded. the Anteadstatus retreat at the rear of Hastatus Line and reform again after 30% casualty. while everything in the "signa referre" order of move was carried out, the 3 men of Hastatus Posterior have accidentally killed by archery, and 2 man of Hastatus Prior, in the right flank area. ___________________________ figure 2 representation []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.=............Hastatus Posterior / heavy infantry []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/. []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.............[]/......[]/. []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.=............Hastatus Prior / heavy infantry []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.............[]/ 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/..=............Anteadstatus / medium infantry 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. 0/.. the first line men place position who was killed by arrow was immediately replaced by the second line men who take now the first line men position, the third line continue to do same process, everything was done in an automatic manner without any needs for a command order.

If Christians had been around in the time of Augustus, do you think that he would have supported the persecution of them? Emperor Goblinus original christian was destined to be persecuted from beginning to end.... and ends of the world. it is been written and prophesied in lowly Greek Dialect "Bible." ( The New Testament ) but they are not yet around at that time, so no one can really tell.

First question, would an unit of cavalry require back-up horses? If so how many? In Roman Legion it is not a practice, but in Hun's they commonly have more per person. How would a mounted soldier prevent dropping his spear/lance. If their is a "contact charge", the spear will be lost by breakage or impact deflection. At what speed would cavalry charge the enemy. At running speed of the horse, but it is normally always a rear or flanking attack, frontal charge will be a wrong tactical decision.You are commiting suicide acts. In that game cavalry charge into enemy lines with full speed, trampling, or bumping over... computer games is very very far from realistic control system of real life...of Roman warfare. In Roman Legion, they use a continous "battle line" called= legio level = legio augmen cohor level = cohor acies tactical type = 1 = one line = simplex acies 2 = two line = duplex acies 3 = three line = triplex acies so if a single horse or even a 100 horse , will commit a frontal attack charge, will be first meted a volley of 100 Hastatus velitaris, and if they survive the first , second , third throw. ( veterans have more than 3 velitaris ) will surely be maimed by a wall of "hastae"( long big spear ) and the final killing close quarter throw of "hastula" ( small spear ) please take note, here it is how the cohors normally do the triplex acies line; __________________________ Primum Acies Line 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/..=............Anteadstatus / medium infantry 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.=............Hastatus Posterior / heavy infantry []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.=............Hastatus Prior / heavy infantry []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ ------------------------------------- Secundus Acies Line 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/..=............Ante Princeps / medium infantry / ante pilanus cursores 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/.=............Princeps Posterior / heavy infantry ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/. ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/. ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/.=.............Princeps Prior / heavy infantry ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/. ()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/...()/.()/.()/. -------------------------------------- Equitatus Turmae ___________________________ CohorsSigniferi -------------------------------------- Tertius Acies Line []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.=............Triarius Prior / heavy infantry []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/.=............Triarius Posterior / heavy infantry []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ []/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/...[]/.[]/.[]/ 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/..=............Ante Triarius / medium infantry / ante pilanus cursores 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. 0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.,.0/..0/..0/.. About communication on the battlefield. The legiones legatus of the legio have "tactical positioning control" of the "augmen acies" but not the individual manipular line...the normal command will be limited to... augmen retreat , augmen hold , and augmen forward... via legio signiferi. The tribunus have command control of the cohors organizational structure and men. "tactical 'positioning' control" and the "strategical 'movement' manuever" of the "cohors acies". control is by means of CohorsSigniferi. The Romanus Legiones do the battle by "organizational battle line". the unit normally move by the manipular centuriones = by Hastatus , Princeps , and Triarius. not by one or a few person. i hope it helps and my explanation is clear.

more years and health to the celebrants, and cheers to your happiness.

let's consider the following question? the first era christian needs to explained what they believe to all other peolpe, and indoctrinate them to their fundamental Biblical beliefs, before any one, must less a, Romanus (privelege peolple of that time in the world) to be converted to a foreign faith , who originated from a conquered and vanished country, the lowly Judea and lowly people....even under pain of persecution and death. you must believe that even if you will be put to death, you will loss nothing but earn more. so you need to exposed and explained your christianity to be able to convert other people. how could you maintained secrecy, if you will go out and wanted to convert other people. everything is written and recorded in lowly Greek Dialect "Bible." ( The New Testament ) even the church persecution was long been propesied, after the apostle will be gone and all dead.

The 313 Edict of Tolerance of Emperor Constantine. made it a illegal to arrest and punished a man for being a christian, by virtue of edict. if you will study the story of the Council of Nicea, it take them almost 5 years of debate, until Emperor Constantine tired of waiting for long time decide for himself, what should be in the first place, a religious debate on the state of being of Jesus. "if the emperor claims deity, how come the saviour of the christian is only a man in being." and the emperor lean in favor of the deity of Jesus, and an imprimatur was affix to Nicene Creed. after Arius return to Africa he suddenly found himself a persecuted church leader. the new emerging western Romanized controled christianity eclipse those in the eastern church, and a newer form of persecution emerge, if you are not a christian, you will be persecuted. if you will not accept Jesus as god, you will be persecuted under the Nicene Creed edict. and if you are heresy, you will be persecuted. are this things not true, it is recorded by history. do not forget it is the Jewish high priest who wanted the Jewish "Christ" to be persecuted to death. jealousy can kill. politics can kill. "there is no permanent friends or enemy, only permanent interest." rivalry can kill, in whatever field of conflict, political, military, social status and religious arena.

i maintain my vote to... Pool of manpower on which to draw. no tribe, monarch , nation or race ever recover from loss of a major battle ever recover again. Rome is a confederation of officially 35 tribe which to draw pool of manpower for the Roman military superiority and survivibility. the decline of Rome was more of the disintegration of the Patrician and senate clan line, which was in the beginning the ones who provide the military manpower and logistics.

Rome 16:16 Bible , "greet each other of a holy kiss, all Church of Christ greet you." the first century chruch was secret just because they are persecuted, no more no less . how could you convert Romanus to a very foreign and persecuted religion... if they offer no salvation from eternal condamnation in the lake of fire for our sin. ...and offer forgiveness and everlasting life for the true Church of Christ members only... and ressurection to life...on the day of judgement of the Lord God... in the end of the world.

Diocletian was the last... imperial persecution of the true christian. Rome 16:16 Bible , "greet each other of a holy kiss, all Church of Christ greet you." until the 313 Edict of Tolerance of Emperor Constantine. the first century chruch was secret just because they are persecuted, no more no less . christian was a very minor religion only and even subjected to extreme extermination, by way of social and official state persecution, until Constantine's Edict of Tolerance. the christinity was slowly romanized from 325 AD , little by little the Rome pagan custom and tradition were added as thought they were original or true christian doctrinal tenets, by virtue of council. After the christian leadership was controled by the Roman emperor, through political coup d etat, the persecuted church suddenly became the persecutor church then on, they put to death all who will objected to their rule, simply by declaring them heresy with the arm and sword of the state. Roman Catholic was the romanized and paganized christianity. if you will look at the Bible, original christian was very simple and straight religion.

People tend to go through history without realising how much time between periods went by... Viggen it is natural err and misunderstanding for none professional educators, like me, who are passive. in "Nataniel's Nuts" book i read few years ago, it claim that the war between England and Dutch in the Far East , Indonesia, about the nuts. when the English get the America from Dutch. The Dutch exchange it for the right in Bull Run. a very tiny island in the very south of Indonesia but very rich in nuts, who happen to grow only there. i can not even recall the proper chronological time frame in a year by year or by 20 years frame. the only things i commonly remember, time frame of the great events, the cause and effects. so correction should be emphasize to correct those impression. as i can easily remember in the history of Rome. The rape of Lucretia was the cause for the over throw of Etruscan king and the republic was born. The Punic Wars 1 and 2 was mostly the story of Rome and Scipio clan and Hannibal clan. The power struggle for the control of Rome senate causes many civil war and the Imperator was born. and J. Caesar was the most well know personality it produce even after 2 millinnia. that's how normally common people know it, sometimes without realising that a great span of time separate the two event's that runs runs for many generation time and even decades or centuries. but it is not enough reason to most dedicated people who loves Rome very well. because it could sometime distort facts of event no.1 to event no.2 who have great different span time.

if you will take note, he was making sex with a goat. let's consider the following facts: in Muslim religion, you could lost your life if you will be seen having sex with woman, not your wife. your head will be surely cut off for rape. then why not get married, a very simple answer, if you have the money or dowry for the girl. when a man can not have a sex for a long long long time, you could lost your sense, because of over burden desire to have sex. that why even in very modern educated westerner society... ...malicious sexual desire to hav sex , even sexual child abuse and some rape, was commited. we was even more scandal, if it is commited by religious father or bishop, and it really happen in the yesterdays and even until today in western countries. and not only in backward far flung village.

41 married with young children 9, 7 , 1 years old construction worker and aspiring wargame inventor Is the influence of the media creating a more violent society? yes, it could make a children, make physically hostile reactions to minor argument. by simply emulating those violent actions.but can be easily corrected if monitored and guided. to adult , not much, except to make hostile psychological reaction in mind or words. by seeing those violent scenes it arose hostile feelings. parental guidance is very much needed to off set those effect.

Come on Roman wargamer I know you know better than that :- Germanicus reply: my note say's Marius was married to J. Caesar aunt. i err, although it is big to you, it is minore to me, my time frame on Rome have many minor gaps. my note say's note 1. foundation of Rome , ( become national ) begin at the consolidation of Italia ended at , when Etruscan king was dethroned and republic founded. Brutus was now known. note 2. expasion of Rome , as superpower ( become international ) Punic War 1 and 2, it is almost the story of Scipio clan, and Hannibal , the worst enemy Rome ever known and meet. it ended at Hannibal suicide. note 3. battle for the control of power begin with Marius , with his reform, and many battles. Spartacus, Crassus, Sulla , etc. it ended when Octavian became Imperator. i know no more after this event , Varian and Lollian defeat. most of my readings after this era was base more on Roman Catholic history. maybe my err and fail memory was cause by over fatigue and stress, been working in construction work from 8 am to 8 pm , even Sunday since last week of January. then last week a land slide happen that claims a thousands live including 250 student at school. i can monitor only it at the night late news around 1130 pm. to study the causes. then 3 days ago our President, declare a state of emergency. almost lock a newspaper, arrested few left leaning congressmen and few retired generals. then yesterday, some people arrived in front of military headquarters to protest and protect some seems to be arrest of actived military officers, that turn out to be some show of sympathy to unwarranted and imformal turn over of command of the Marines, those active officers seem to be as suspect or PGMA do not trust in crisis. but as i watch all those event every night, it seems to me as a pre emtive strike to those people, political, military, press and business, who want the president to step down. to curtail their momentum to gather enough forces or as strong warning that they will use also force.